Consider this.....please???......I'm worried for our future

yes Claig I think it just all went very wrong from the outset...we were hostile for a reason, I think...it was just never going tobe a great thread the way it was started. Perhapd you or someone else could start another based more on what you have just outlined, I agree it would be interesting.

agree, slug.

Lilmissummy is right. I freely admit to being a Leftie. But I find myself nodding my head and agreeing with Atlantis about tax credits. I agree with claig about too much state intervention etc. However the difference is they present cognent, well reasoned arguments, can back up their statements and most important of all, conduct their arguments with a certain amount of wit and mutual respect.

The OP on the other hand, rushed in, threw around a bunch of illogical statements then stamped her foot whenever anyone pointed out the inconsistencies to her.

Who want's a one party state? The country benefits from having different viewpoints, robustly argued. It's the descent into sloganeering that bothers me. That and the implied assumption that because we are mothers we won't understand the complexities of economics and are only really interested in fluffier subjects.

Her(??) posts were really aggressive and I wasnt going to post at all when I read it, especially when the verbal slanging match started (because I am a wimp ) but I do enjoy a civilised debate which is why I joined in eventually!

I dont think she wanted a debate either... maybe she expected an uneducated bunch of women who sit around and discuss the price of bacon all day who perhaps would agree out of sheer ignorance???!!

she might not have expressed herself in the best way possible. But the points she brought up are worthy of debate. The state power and intrusion is a fundamental difference between left-wing thinking and the thinking of liberals and Tories who are against too many state powers and want a more liberal free society. The fact that so many posters were hostile to her has put her off arguing her point. Many Tory voters have seen this and are now reluctant to join in. Unfortunately we are all the losers, because there are some very important issues and differences between the parties, and this was one of them. It can be very informative to discuss issues like this, because not everybody is knowledgeable about some of these issues.

i don't think she wanted a debate, I don't think she was ready for one, her OP was full of vapid generalisation, no clear points, it made very little sense...there was no starting point for a debate THERE.

It was also condescending to think we would really take what points there were on, without questioning them...and when questioned she had no information to abck them up.

Then she started namechanging wildly to back herself up...it was ridiculous. And she attacked WM very quickly, came out with all sorts of nonsense...I'm sorry if she felt attacked but frankly what did she expect, joining just to try and get people to vote the same way as she does, without offering any reason why? I think many of us were just offended tbh.

See?

you probably think us three are all bullying you now

We're all just disagreeing with you at the same time. Not the same.

ninna - I don't think she was either.

But tbh this does come up in all ways on MN doesn't it?

If the 4 in 1 majority which Heathen suggests is correct, then that majority appears to be bullying, whereas it is in fact just a majority view all expressing themselves at the same time.

The minority then feels victimized. But actually it's an accident of numbers.

She/he/whatever wasn't here to debate, but to dictate to others how they should think and vote and fling insults at people.

I don't think she was shouted down (though you may well think I was one of the ones shouting!).

She personally insulted me,

All on her first day posting on MN.
She deserved all she got, IMO.

I think there's a difference between debating and shouting down. I think she tried to debate and was shouted down.

She was disagreed with - that's different.

If she does want a debate then she should say her piece, not slink off if she finds people disagree with her and aren't frightened of saying, 'but I don't think the State are telling me what to do all the time OP.'

that's what a debate is! Perhaps she just couldn't be bothered to have that debate, as claig suggests.

Thanks to the people who are putting forward the tory side of the argument. I agree with you all. The person who started this thread was shouted down. I believe she wanted a debate and gave up in despair.

Yes, Atlantis I understand that exactly. That's sort of what I feel I end up doing on the v. right wing debates actually.

It's like you think you have to refute something, because someone might believe it to be true, and it's misinformation.

That's a good point.

hundredtime sounds about right!

Personally I'm not interested in starting a debate as to why i'm voting tory (even though I could probably go on for hours), what I do tend to do is post on threads where people are attacking tory policy and somewhat getting it wrong, or deliberately mis-informing people as per the tax credits (scandal), sure start centre closing and how all SN children will be forced into special schools, because these things annoy me.

I have no problem with posts that criticise policies because they believe them wrong, as long as the policy is accurate.

I also like to debate policies of other parties I believe to be wrong but would never deliberately spread lies about another parties policies.

And what really annoys me about people debating the tories is they always hype back to MT, yes, she had balls of steel, yes under her life was tough for a lot of people, but she also took a bankrupt economy (from Labour) and transformed it into a powerhouse so when Labour got in 1997 they had all that money to spend, spend, spend, that was thanks to her bringing industry here from abroad (car plants, manufacturing etc) and making tough choices over cuts, and as we have read from all parties the cuts needed now will be deeper than under MT.

The centre left are chattier

That'll do then

Nicely put claig

Maybe depends on the thread? Eg in AIBU the 'scared of the Tories' and '..or just misinformed' threads have various centre right comments. About 1 in 3 or 4, I'd say

I am a Tory voter and (I'd like to believe) a reasonably sensible one (occasionally!).

I am voting Tory as I feel that Labour made a bunch of promises that they then went against and the people in my old local area suffered because of it.

A couple of examples are:-
They promised better education and then shut 7 schools in the area because of funding (the local class size increased from 28 - 35).

They promised better healthcare and then shut down 3 of the (within a 40 mile radius) local hospitals. My grandparents will now have a choice of hospitals both 25 miles from their house.

They shut the local playcenters and youth groups so that crime has increased in the area as the children have no where to go.

I dont normally get involved in the politics on MN as I find that if you mention that you vote Conservative then you get shouted down.

Anyway I thought that, although he was Labour, Tony Blair was actually a reasonable prime minister. Gordon Brown however... I couldn't vote for that man and believe the country will fall apart with him as our leader.

I dont agree with Lib Dem ideologies.

I think it is for the reason that I stated before. The majority of active posters on MN are probably left-leaning, even though lurkers may be right-wing. I think Tory supporters are reluctant to join in because they will be accused of point-scoring and paranoia, of being uncaring, selfish people who care only about the rich. The OP brought up some huge differences between Labour and the Tories in terms of the power of the state, and yet the OP was lambasted for trying to debate this issue. That is why Tory supporters can't be bothered. They think it is pointless discussing it, particularly since the Tories are more likely to win anyway, since the majority of the country agrees with them.

Just read heathen's post. That might be the answer actually.

I think you slightly misunderstood my point claig.

It wasn't that I think the whole country is labour supporting - you'd have to be mad, and indeed in a bubble, to think that.

It was about where the centre right debate is on MN. And not just 'here's why I hate Labour' but 'Here's why I think the Conservatives are wonderful.' I don't hear it at all, and I was wondering why.

I don't think the answer to that question is, 'because everyone is deluded by the BBC and nobody on MN has ever met a RL person'

The centre right debate - ironically enough - is right outside my door, on a daily basis, where I live.

Just wondering why not on MN. Especially given that Conservative's seemingly according to MN poll have equal representation.

sanctimoamyarse, agree that MN does not have to be representative. But I think it is worth remembering that it isn't representative, and that the majority of the country thinks diferently, otherwise we might end up being in our own little bubble or ivory tower, unaware of what people are really thinking. This is what happened to Gordon Brown yesterday when he met a real voter, in fact a Labour voter, and couldn't handle being questioned.

I agree with you about Wales. I don't know the situation there, but I suspect that the Tories don't try as hard there as in other areas, because of the entrenched left-wing support. I think the Tories could have a lot of arguments to convince the people of Wales, but if they are not prepared to listen to the people there and explain their points of view, then I support the people of Wales in not voting for them.

SanctiMoanyArse (love the name!)

Same as me really - MN is actually a LOT more representative of the UK than where I live (Glasgow). Can't imagine there is a Tory voter within a stone's throw of my house (well maybe ... there are a few nice Red Sandstone Villas over the road!).

From my own pov, I actually find MN quite centre-right/rightwing. But only cos I a dyed-in-the-wool leftie (despite my tory/libdem voting parents!)