We need your thoughts on Finance lessons being dropped from Schools Bill

Hello Martin.

Agree with your post, I did point out on the first page that we need to teach the difference between bad debt and controlled/useful debt.

I'm a member of your mse site and have found the information on there really useful over the last few years. It has made a big difference in some "interesting" times for my family and I.

What about setting up a not for profit org that employs people specifically to go into schools/hostels etc to give lessons on finance and budgeting? Is that something you would consider or suggest when lobbying the government?
That way, the teachers don't have the extra responsibility plus you have the subject being taught by a specialist.
People like me ( not that I'm angling for a job ) could give their personal experiences as part of case studies etc.

Companies spend billions of pounds a year advertising, marketing and teaching staff to sell ? isn?t it time we gave our kids buyers trainng.

this is exactly my point - the info needs to come at the point of sale - Key Facts Illustrations need to paint the whole picture...

a few lessons several years before = wholly inadequate?

Hi,

Its Martin Lewis here.

Thank you for the interesting and informed debate. Just a few points ? hope you don?t mind me interrupting - these are bashed out in the middle of sending my weekly email so forgive any grammer issues

? We need to break the cycle of debt. The UK is second in the world cup of debt after the US, we?re massively endebted. The stigma of debt has been broken as its now virtually compulsory to borrow when you go to university ? and to buy a house. Yet we?ve introduced debt compulsion without ever introducing debt education. Can we really ask an endebted generation to pass the right messages

? What would they be taught? Well firstly its in the hands of PFEG the personal finance education group ? but I?ve been lobbying hard and successfully that it should be real money lessons. My three main ones are 1. A company?s job is to make money. 2. Debt isn?t bad, bad debt is bad. 3. Loyalty doesn?t pay. The govt had been happy with these, indeed itd sponsored my teen cash class guide (its free on my site 40 page guide) to go in every NOTW to help and we were working on a teachers pack so it could go in the lessons.

? Couldn?t I do some videos. Yes I could, and have in fact. Yet the problem isn?t the 40% of schools that do it ? its the 60% that don?t. For me to dedicate some of the time put aside for PHSE to financial education is so important.

While to an educated crowd on here it may sound silly you?d be amazed how many?s people reaction to this is ?I just wished someone had explained to me that store cards aren?t free money when i was 18 ? I didn?t really get it ? nor compound interest.? Of course we wish their parents had, but yu can?t guarantee it, a substantial chunk of the UK is financially illiterate and its time we end that.

When people ask me what the solution to ?bank charges?, ?abusive credit card interest rates?, ?budget airline rip off fees?, ?being told to go to the manufacturer by shops when you?ve bought a faulty product? my real answer is decent education in money and consumer rights.

Companies spend billions of pounds a year advertising, marketing and teaching staff to sell ? isn?t it time we gave our kids buyers trainng.

Hope you don?t my mind two penneth worth.

Martin

Somehow I've grown up to be really sensible with money. I'm not particularly knowledgeable - the two are definitely different! But I am well equipped to find out what I need to know, when I need to know it IYSWIM.

My parents were useless with money, they still are - somehow I took on board the message that I must never ever make the same mistakes!

FWIW we've tried what some PPs have suggested and told my DH's kids how much money is wasted on HP deals and loans - in one ear out the other, for them (and they are representative of the times, I feel) all that matters is having it RIGHT NOW!

Also, my mum was very careful to hide any money worries from us as kids. I dont think its a good idea as money problems are sadly a way of life for most... and head in the sand is never going to be the answer.

I have only read the OP and the first replay and I have to ask, although that person probably left ages ago...

"We should be teaching basics like boiling eggs, making spag bol, washing instructions, and how to pay stuff"

I completely disagree, thats for parents/ families/ carers to teach not the curriculum! They are the basic 'soft skills' of survival.

However learning about debt, finances, home accounting is, although also the job of parents, something that absolutely needs to be part of the curriculum.

From a feminist point of view, a lot of girls dont see their mums dealing with finances and tax forms and the like. If they were taught at school then this kind of thing would be second nature and youd have less women relying on men financially.

Feminist point of view aside. A lot of the mess this country is in is down to irresponsible borrowing so training in this area will be key to the future of the country.

I was thinking the same . We have taught similar lessons looking at mobile phone contracts. My school also had familes who were very reliant on provident loans and their ilk, catalogues and places like Brighthouse. we looked at how much things actually cost after you had paid all the interest and then compared with other retailers.

It give the kids practice with their mathematical skills and make them aware of the high cost of debt. Many of these kids had no adult in their immediate family working, you often have no choice but to use loans and catalogues if you are living on benefits. Hopefully they began to realise that a life on benefits or a low income is actually very expensive and that a way out of that is to do well at school.

They sound like great lessons, slug- fancy coming to my school?

One of the most illuminating (and popular) lessons I used to teach when I was a maths teacher was calculating just how much my (16-18 year old's) students smoking habit cost them a year.

I also, with the brighter ones, would work out with them the best mobile phone deal. They were always seduced by the advertising We would break it down into how many minutes/texts per day that meant, then took out the hours they were sleeping, in class, washing, praying, playing football etc. Eventually the dawning realisation would come that perhaps the cheaper deal or even pay as you go (soo uncool apparantly) worked out much cheaper.

It just used to worry me so much that without financial education (of a type that was relevant to them) these teenagers were sitting ducks for future debt. I used to make them repeat the mantra "If you don't pay attention to the numbers, you are going to get fleeced". Hopefully some if it sunk in.

MysticMasseuse had a good point about those who are a bit wealthier not being as financially savvy - if growing up money has never been a problem it is possible that a young adult would never have seen someone taking care with their money. Just putting a card in an ATM and being given money in return.

Lessons about financial awareness (and not just about budgeting etc, but about debt in its forms too) would be useful, I think. 15/16 year olds are just starting out on the world of money (even if it is just spending pocket money on CDs etc) and are in a position to be more receptive to some financial education.

Parents do so much behind-the-scenes, I think some may get used to not discussing financial things with their children. My very liberal and open parents never really spoke to me about budgeting etc, although I do remember them being very careful when I was little and my mum was a SAHM.

It is something I figured out at university. But I went in the days before a university education in itself bought with it enormous debts.

I don't think most teachers do hate teaching PSHE, I have always loved doing it.

I'm a teacher and have to do PSHE- most teachers HATE it as we have to talk about stuff we don't really know about, have an interest in or have been trained for. e.g. the legal system, drugs, sex ed, bullying, careers, citizenship are just some of the things I have waffled on about this year. Every year it's "schools have to teach this ..." but it falls to a non-expert to do it.
However, I am a maths teacher and feel VERY passionate about financial education and so I have embedded it into the Maths curriculum. I have abandoned the KS3 National Curriculum as it is a joke. It is basically someone who knew a child once and knows what is best for them..... Grrrrr!

I?d love it for parents to take responsibility for their kids .

Can Martin Lewis not just record some 'lessons' for schools? He is knowledgeable and conveys the right message...no - too simplistic?? It could kick off some classroom discussion...

Another point... a lot of parents teach their children the benefits of SAVING but because they're from a different generation they don't even consider teaching them about debt... because its not a concept they are so familiar with.

Anyone know what they do in other countries wrt finance lessons?

When I went to university I was astonished at how little others knew. That included the so called student bankers who merely trotted out the mantra from their leaders.

If you are unable to understand or control your own finances, how can you teach a child ?

Why don't we just drop using computers in schools because some Luddite parents cannot use them ? Same logic.

Agree strongly with Martin Lewis on this one. Personally very disappointed that its been withdrawn.

If a nanny state is not letting some poor person commit suicide because they're in way over their heads and haven't realised its not too late to sort it out - then give us the nanny state.

Finance isn't something a lot of ADULTS understand - how are they supposed to teach it to their kids? Professionals are required, and parents should of course be backing them up.

How many of us can simply and clearly explain compound interest or pensions... ? Probably quite a lot of people ... but clearly they're not doing it or we wouldn't have such a low take up of pensions, or low savings rates, etc.. amongst the population.

Kids need to be taught how companies just want to sell product to make money for their shareholders. Its bigger than just personal finance IMO...

Having got myself into huge debt as a student - no financial support in terms of money OR teaching - it took me YEARS to get out of it. The pressure that comes with debt is truly crippling for some people....

School AND parents should teach us to deal with life!

You are eligible for an overdraft/credit etc. at 18, so you reach the age of financial responsibility; even if you choose to decline the offers of credit and accept parental support IYSWIM.

Many children have to manage finances at 16- practically all by 18.

i don't think most kids do seriously manage their own finances at 18. some leave home - but the average age for leaving home is mid twenties now (exact figure anyone?) even going to university is so linked to your folks income 'financial independence' isn't what you get for a long time....

Riiiiight...

This has all gone very strange. Are you ok?

Whatever

You forgot the 'Ner ner ner ner ner' BTW.

Well, that makes for great debate

Because I am a free thinking adult and I choose not to

MmeBlueberry, what on earth are you talking about?

I recognised the fact that I had used a poor analogy, so withdrew the question- even though somebody else managed to answer it. You didn't seem to understand it.

I am at a loss to understand why you won't answer my question about your views on sex education as part of the compulsory curriculum, and why sex education is different from financial education?

Well a cross curriculal drip feed approach is very different from pages, and more effective, IMO.

"the end product of a reading course, is, hopefully, a child that knows how to read, and is able to put that in practice.

the end product of PHSE mini-course on financial management, is not a child that knows how to manage their finances, and is not one that is able (or legally allowed even) to put that into practice. At best they may be a bit more aware (for a short while) of some financial issues. Not much point."

Would it have to be a 'PSHE mini-course?' Why? Why not as part of a cross section of subjects? As I said before, 'Economic well-being' is part of the Every Child Matters framework, so has already been deemed important.

Many children have to manage finances at 16- practically all by 18. (Let's not forget that the school leavers' age is being raised to 18 very shortly.) Payslips, tax, national insurance and budgeting- what to look for in a bank account, why and how the state of the economy affects the money in your pocket; these are all relevant.