Europhobe or Europhile?

Not to mention the rotten corruption of the Eu. The refusal of the auditors to sign of the accounts of the European Comission for the FIFTEENTH consecutive because of the HUGE amounts of money missing and unaccounted for. Then you get the waste of money, you coud lwrite page son it. I particularly object to €2.4 billion spent in 2008 promoting European integration and ?ever closer union? through a myriad of funding streams and through the various Commission departments ? DG Culture, DG Education and Citizenship, and DG Communication.

More than €34m was dedicated to "Fostering European Citizenship", and a further €62m was spent on "Developing cultural cooperation in Europe". The very candidly stated aim of this is to generate support and justification for European integration. Joseph Goebbels woudl have been proud (you remember Goebbels, he was another power mad german federalist)

The Eu is rotten, corrupt and if you thought our MP's were pocket lining crooks, its peanuts compared to the scale of the fingers in the till that goes on in the EU.

'Yet the Daily Mail never seems to run stories about French/Bulgarian/Spanish villagers complaining about Brits coming over, pricing them out of the housing market and failing to integrate...'

You want to hear some of the Belgians on the subject!

There will not be a standing EU army as the member states of the EU are for the most part the same as the member states of NATO, and they have committed their troops to NATO. There is no logic in having both NATO and an EU Army, as they would duplicate things. Given that the US are also NATO members and provide a great deal of the manpower and lift; and that France has recently rejoined NATO, then the chances of an EU Army are slim. The Military Staff that the EU do have are involved in things like anti-piracy off Somalia (Op Atalanta); however they are a very miniscule part of Baroness Ashton's new fiefdom.

I an a Europhobe; I think it is too big, too expensive and is out of hand. Van Rompuy is a Federalist to the core; you only have to look at the communique recently about European Economic government (governance in the English translation) to see that. Money is wasted on irrelevant projects and the fonctionnaires went on strike recently because they weren't going to get their 3.8% pay rise. I also have to agree with Lincstash about the French!

LOL Nighby. I got distracted by the chat thread and biscuits/poster talk.

Youd have done better if the germans had been in charge of the british economy over the last few years...we dont have the huge debts ...

Oh go and hide under yer mattresses!

Europhile here, live in germany. MrIC, hope you ahve got your tin hat on, starting a thread with an invitaiton like that.

Ah the usual Pro Eu propaganda.

We have let in 3 million immigrants, and the government itself admits there is no economic benefoit to us, and at the same tiem its put intolerable strain on our services and society.

And there's nothing democratic about the united states of europe. We woudl be a small minority of 60 million in 500 million, and have little control over our own destinies. At the moment we can make our own decisins about tax, foreign policy, the economy etc etc. all that woud lbe taken away. We woudl have less control over our own country than the average parish council. And what makes you think foreigners woudl do those things that are best for us? We've already seen how the french and germans behave - look at the way they illegally banned our beef for ten years following the BSE crisis, look at the way the channel ports are immediately targetted by french strikers. Look at the way the French owned electricity company ERF has kept prices as high as they can in the UK whilst dropping them for there own countrymen.

No, the history of this country and the behavior of the europeans in the last 30 years shows you they would not act in our interest, we will only get that by controlling our own country. The french and germans have amply demonstrated they will butt fuck us at every opportunity, lie every time they speak and cant be trusted for one second.

Cant believe the naivety of longfingernails.

The Lisbon treaty sets the stage legally for the formation of the United States of Europe. It establishes the EU as a legal entity, in the same way an country is established legally. The Eu has already started appointing 'minister'. Its well on its way to having an EU wide police force. The Lisbon treaty, once signed by the members, also allows the EU to give itself whatever extra powers its wants, and to take over policy from any member countries in whatever areas it wants.

They are already talking about overseeing the national budgets of every member state, including the UK - that is to say, our yearly budget, set by out elected Chancellor, wil have to be given the ok by the french and germans. Thos country foolish enough to have joined the single currency already are finding they are not in control of there economies anymore, because they can no longer devalue or revalue, neither can they adjust interest rates. If we had joined the single currency we woudl be in a far worse position than we are now.

The EU leaders themselves have been quite open in the past that the object of the exercise is a unified europe, a United States of Europe. Make no mistake about that. That is the object of the exercise. Its no secret, in fact they have boasted of it openly in the past.

To that end, everything the Eu, every law it passes, every directive it issues, is designed to move power to Brussels and away from national governments, and every opportunity is taken to destroy national identity, to reduce and lower the concept of the nation, to make citizenship of the Eu better and more beneficial than citizenship of a single country.

Look at the Human Rights laws. They are designed specifically to give foreigners more rights in a country than the citizens of that country. They are designed to undermine the whole concept of citizenship, and destroy the value of it.

Mass immigration is also designed to undermine and destroy national identity. The letting into this country of 3 million foreigners suited the EU to that end, and also suited Blair and Brown in order to flood the UK with cheap labour and cow the unions.

The Eu is insidious and dangerous, and the biggest single threat to the independence and sovereignty of the nation for nearly 1000 years.

MmeLindt

That's the point.

No-one sees themselves as European before national, but we nevertheless have this panoply of European institutions, seeking to impose European-level diktats and policy, over which we have absolutely no democratic control.

The idea of a EU army is just as unpopular in Germany as it is in UK, no matter what Guido Westerwelle proposes.

The flag exists, but I don't know anyone who would fly that flag instead of their national flag.

Just as the EU anthem is unlikely to be sung at pop concerts or football matches.

As long as we don't see ourselves as Europeans first and foremost, these things will not change. Very very few inhabitants of Europe would class themselves as European.

EU flag

EU anthem

EU army (thankfully we keep stopping this)

The EU speaks of "European economic government" www.euractiv.com/en/priorities/summit-opens-way-eu-common-economic-policy-news-391584

We have EU foreign policy, headed by an unelected bureaucrat. We have an EU president, also unelected.

The basic, fundamental problem with the EU is that it is not accountable to us, or indeed, anyone. We can throw out Gordon Brown at an election. What mechanism do we have to throw out Herman van Rompuy?

I agree that there is a lot to criticise in the EU, but I do not think that we are heading towards a EU army, flag or anthem. That is not going to happen.

The individual states, even those that see the EU as positive, are still very patriotic. In fact, they have become more patriotic since the introduction of the Euro.

I have lived in Germany for many years, am now in Switzerland and for all the people in Europe opposed the Euro, most are happy that we have it.

Yes, there are issues and problems with a common currency, but there are also huge advantages.

I believe that the EU parliament should be more open, more accountable but also that we as voters have to take a more active interest in what is going on in Brussels. How many people actually know the name of their EU representative?

I'm with longfingernails.

I'd much rather be allied with Europe but I hate the EU. I'd still rather have stronger links with Europe than with the US, for instance. It seems to me we've got to go for one or the other.

I am hoping that at some point in the far distant future the world will operate on a wholly global level, and being a member of some sort of European alliance is a step in that direction.

The EU is set up wrongly, it is not remotely dispassionate or unbiased and at the moment I think it is having a lovely time playing favourites, and lining it's own pockets, rather like our own politicians have been. Unfortunately, EU people are even less accountable.

I like Europe but don't like the institutions of the EU. There is a big difference between being a EU-phile and a Europhile.

I like the free trade, open market, and free movement of people.

I dislike the Euro. The single European currency is in deep trouble because the interest rate and monetary needs of Spain, Greece, and Portugal are vastly different from those of Germany and France.

The way the EU works is very secretive and dodgy. It relies on backscratching rather than conviction. You get fudged compromises and a lack of democratic accountability.

I don't like the mantles of statehood - the unelected president and foreign minister, or the fact that we are moving towards a European army, European flag, European anthem. This is both for patriotic/xenophobic reasons (delete as you feel is appropriate) and because I believe power should be devolved downwards, not passed upwards to supranational bodies. Those who have power should be as close to the people as possible.

I believe on issues where genuine European-level co-operation is necessary (for example, global warming and Afghanistan) the EU fails utterly. Loose coalitions of European countries which agree on each issue would be far more able to get things done in practice.

For all that, the EU HAS been a force for good - but only insofar as the trade is concerned, not politics. The economist Bastiat made the pithiest case for supranational trade: When goods do not cross borders, soldiers will.