Europhobe or Europhile?

Yes, the law of the land is the Queens law, and has been for a thousand years. No other law can be above it or even equal to it, especially not islamic law.

Furthermore, sharia law is sexist and biassed massively against women, and is therefore unfair, unjust and unacceptable to all women in this country irrespective of culture.

We will not accept the existence of sharia courts in the UK, not one single one, not for one single day. Accept the established law of this land, or go live somewhere else.

Agree with ABD, but am very glad we are not part of Schengen. There should be some means of tracking who comes in and out, especially in the current climate. The other aspect of Schengen of course was the job losses. My cleaning lady was a customs officer in Poland; come Schengen, she and her husband lost their jobs, moved to Brussels, and she cleans houses. It seems a waste of her degree to me.

I also agree to an extent with Lincstash. In the furore about the cartoons of the prophet Muhammad, demonstrators were allowed to proceed through the streets of London brandishing placards calling for beheadings and death to those who had published these cartoons. If a non-Muslim had tried that - what would the response have been? Those who protested may have been third or fourth generation Brits, I don't know; but, in the UK we do not normally call for the murder of those who poke fun at our beliefs, we shrug our shoulders, let them laugh and carry on.

I also don't like some of the practices that immigrant communities bring with them such as Female Genital Mutilation.

The Shari'a debate has been ongoing for along time - it was being discussed in 1987 when I was doing my degree. If the Shari'a courts were like the Bet Din and dealt with food laws and religious divorces, then may be there would be no problem, but they want from what I have read to be involved in settling family disputes, wills, divorce settlements and custody of the children; for which we already have courts and legal processes in place. The law of the land should be supreme (except if it is EU law).

Your failure to recognize my right to defend my culture, and your attempt to suppress my right defend my culture, makes you a racist, an anti english racist.

It doesnt work anymore, you cant stop the debate on immigration by calling me racist for defending my culture like everyone else does, and you cant go on ignoring my right to preserve and maintain my culture, traditions and values.

I demand the same respect for my culture as other minority cultures already enjoy, currently to the detriment of my culture. And i demand the recognition that my culture is the culture of 95% of the population, and the culture of this host country, and therefore comes first, since we are a democracy, and democracy is the rule of the majority.

Nah, WW, not playing that game, sorry!

I think you need to do your own research. What about a bit of honest self examination first of all - perhaps it would do you a bit of good?

eg: You do seem to throw out lots of irrelevant questions when your own issues are under the lens. Maybe you think it deflects unwelcome examination away from you? (Hint: It doesn't)

Catinthehat, what have I demanded so rudely?

What do linctash's rants have to do with the freedom of movement in the EU?

And where have I shown racism?

Well we have instances where you have moslems demanding sharia law, immigrants objecting to English christians wearing crosses, or objecting to the english flag. The use of the veil is objectionable to many english people, and you have cases where moslem women demand special treatment when it come to that, such as wearing it when trying to teach children in our schools, or refusing to go through full body scanners at airports because 'its againts there religion'. And you have millions of immigrants who refuse to learn english and demand we learn there language instead - how arrogant, how insulting!!

Then you have foreign criminals using his country to hide from the police, immigrants who commit crimes and then expect to remains nhere, one classic case is Lercio Chindamo, a vile italian thug who knifed a headmaster to death, yet demands to remain here. In peterborough, we have immigrants killing swans and eating them ,which is an insult to the Queen, and a vile practice.

A particularly obnoxious bit of PC bollox was Birminghams invented 'Wintermass' nonsense. Lets get this clear. The Church of England is the nation religion. The Anglican church is one of the cornerstones of State ( Anglican prayers are said in parliament every day), and the Queen is the head of the church. So to try and abolish Christmas in this was was an insult to the entire establishment of Church, State and Monarchy.

When you move to a new country and a new culture, you should have respect for your new host. You should learn there values, learn there customs and culture, and learn there language. Foreigners expect it of us in there countries, and we are entitled to the same respect for our society. its not too much to ask.

A lot of countries will not let you emigrate there unless you have money in the bank and a job, and should you become unemployed you are deported after 6 months. Many countries will not let foreigners own businesses or property. I think thats a superb idea and should be implemented here.

If you want to move here fine. Just make sure you INTEGRATE in our society have respect for English culture and customs and dont sponge off our system. Many immigrants have managed it, but vast numbers dont. And its the latter ones i object to.

Scary, ABD, Bonsoir, MrIC you name it have been able to talk sensibly & openly about the pros & cons of the EU for some time on this thread

But with great excitement, you marched in with your oft repeated 'I'm the only immigrant in the village' schtick (tho' Scary politely pointed out you aren't really).

Widowwadman, I think you fully expected to have a round of applause for shouting Lincstash down, throwing abuse, and generally imposing rude demands. Believe me, the kneejerk "RACIST!" shoutdown you employed doesn't actually work much any more in discussions about immigration, other than to drive yet more people into the arms of the BNP.

You might want to think about why Lincs believes you are at heart an "anti-english racist bigot, who sticks two fingers up at my english culture".

lincstash, what's your definition of immigrants flaunting their culture/shoving it down people's throats? What things come under that heading?

"There were peope living here on these islands well before 0 AD, you idiot."

Yes. They weren't English, though.

Its too late. The Lisbon Treaty basically gives the EU the right to do what the hell it likes, including giving itself any new powers it wants without any further argument or vote.

I like the free movement of goods and people across borders but the Euro is an economic disaster waitng to happen (as Portugal,Ireland, Greece and Spain are now finding out). I do not like the political fudge, corruption and the fact the UK is a massive net contributor financially which other countries live off.

I think we should renegotiate our terms of membership as it seems the Germans are now finally in the process of doing.

Ah, so you have no answers to my previous post, except to come up with something facile. There were peope living here on these islands well before 0 AD, you idiot.

So if that is your only answer, WidowWadman, we may assume you cannot deny or refute any of the accusations in my previous post you are indeed an anti-english racist bigot, who sticks two fingers up at my english culture ?

Just as we thought.

"Except we the English were formed as a nation when we got our first King in 927 AD So recognise we the english have a history that goes back 2000 years."

So you live in 2927 AD? Do you have sonic screwdriver, too?

By WidowWadman Fri 02-Apr-10 14:16:55
I don't really see what the EU has to do with your ugly bigotted xenophobic rant.

(Oh, and regarding the "English Race" you might want to read up on history - Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Romans, Normans, Vikings and the few Celts which haven't been driven out- even your Royal family is German...)

Yea see what i mean. Instead of realising we feel threatened, instead of recognising our concerns, you just call us racist for doing what every one else does, standing up for there own culture.

And yes, the english race is a product of immigration, like every other race. Except we the English were formed as a nation when we got our first King in 927 AD. So recognise we the english have a history that goes back 2000 years. We have a distinct culture, a history, and distinct social way, traditions and customs.

Your response is the racist bigoted one. You're the anti-english bigot who simply pushes my point of view aside, gives it no credence, ignores my concerns, my fears, and my alarm, and pretends that my culture doesnt matter and isnt under threat.

Well guess what, yes it is, and until you recognise that, until YOU give MY culture the same consideration that OUR laws give YOUR culture, then calling ME a racist is laughable. YOU'RE the racist here. YOUR the one that sticks two fingers up at me when i object to my culture being diminished.

Labour has managed to keep the lid on the immigration debate for 14 years by this tactic, it is not racist to talk about immigration and object to it, and its not racist to be alarmed that my culture is being swept away.

now wake up to whats going on, because the longer you ignore us and walk all over us, the worse its going to get, you anti-english racist bigot.

And?

www.fivechinesecrackers.com/2010/01/winterval-beast-that-wouldnt-die.html

'There are things in the UK that frustrate me and I don't think that having born elsewhere should mean that I can't have a negative opinion on some things.' Same as me with Belgium - I don't however stand up in a church or a mosque or a synagogue and slag it off as did Abu Hamza. I think 'grrr' when I forget the bank is shut at lunchtime and go and grab a coffee until it is open .

Nope, Winterval was introduced by Birmingham City Council as they didn't want to upset anyone by having Christmas. I don't see what is wrong with celebrating Diwali and then Christmas; that's the best bit about multiculturalism, that you can see openly what other people are celebrating, and enjoy them doing it. My mum's (CofE) parish church was not allowed to advertise their carol service and Christmas tree festival in the local library as it might have caused offence to others. Neither Birmingham City Council or my mum are fabrications of the right wing media to my certain knowledge, unless you know something about my mum I don't.

There are things in the UK that frustrate me and I don't think that having born elsewhere should mean that I can't have a negative opinion on some things. I don't agree with those expats who moan about everything that is different to their home or only mix with other expats.

And yes, I have the same right to be here as you have the right to be in Belgium, exactly one of the things I like about the EU and lincstash doesn't.

The stuff about carol services and winterval are by the way mostly fabrications by the right wing media.

It depends on how much they are putting in I suppose. Dh is employed by HMG, so we put money into the Belgian economy, and the local taxes are paid collectively by HMG. We use the rubbish collection, but that is it. Our medical care is UK military, and ds goes to an international school.

What frustrates me is immigrants that come to whichever country and then damns it to hell. There are bits about Belgium that frustrate me, but that is how it is done here, and it makes it a quirky place to live. I have got used to most things being shut on Mondays, and most shops shutting for lunch each day. Individuals like Abu Hamza coming to the UK and then preaching sedition and destruction to the society that has taken him in strikes me as discourteous, especially as I believe we were paying him benefits.

Immigration is fine as long as those who come to whichever country are willing to adapt to and integrate with the country they have moved to. The problems arise when that is not the case, and they choose to live in their own communities and not integrate with the wider community.

I do agree with Lincstash to a certain extent in that I think that not allowing churches to advertise a play or a carol service in the local library as it may upset others is just PCness taken to the extreme. I also thoroughly disliked the whole idea of 'Winterval' as opposed to Christmas. British law and customs are based on Judeo- Christian principles and we should not be ashamed of that. If I chose to go and live in an Islamic State, then I would adhere to their rules on dress, drink and food laws - all that Lincstash is asking that immigrants to the UK do the same.

Incidentally Widow - if you are an EU citizen, then surely you don't count as a migrant, as you have a right under EU law to be in UK, just as I have to live in Belgium.

Europhile here.

I love the freedom to travel. When I worked in business, I really valued the harmonisation of standards, which meant we could market a single product across the whole EU.

I think Eurosceptism is important and healthy, though.

Explain it to me then (and bear in mind that even Kipling came to his senses in the end and rejected what he's written earlier)

You know, I thought it would go right over your head in every way possible! I was absolutely right.

catinthehat - I don't see the relevance of that not particular good poem, but I've never liked Kipling much anyway. He's a bit too jingoistic for my taste.

Scaryteacher - "However, we do for the most part put lots of money into the local economy, which has to be a good thing. " Same can be said about immigrants to the UK, can't it?

What is interesting is the way that integration is dealt with by different member states of the EU. In Belgium (in the Flemish speaking part), there is no allowance made for one's inability to converse in Flemish for example. If I want something from the Gemeente, then I have to ask in Flemish. They may take pity and speak in English if I'm struggling, but they may not.

All official correspondence including the annual tax return is in Flemish. The car tax comes in Flemish for dh and French for me (can't work out why). All those who come to Flanders looking for work have to learn to speak Flemish and are given access to subsidised classes; but this is linked I think to their benefits. Contrast this with the money spent on translations for those who don't speak English in the UK.

Equally, there are lots of Belgians where I live who resent the influx of the Brits into this area, arguing that we push up house prices and rental prices, and don't learn the language. However, we do for the most part put lots of money into the local economy, which has to be a good thing.

WidowWadman

A little poem for you to read as you throw your weight around, talking about your entitlements and calling people "thick" because they don't share your world view.

The Beginnings
Rudyard Kipling

It was not part of their blood,
It came to them very late
With long arrears to make good,
When the English began to hate.

They were not easily moved,
They were icy willing to wait
Till every count should be proved,
Ere the English began to hate.

Their voices were even and low,
Their eyes were level and straight.
There was neither sign nor show,
When the English began to hate.

It was not preached to the crowd,
It was not taught by the State.
No man spoke it aloud,
When the English began to hate.

It was not suddenly bred,
It will not swiftly abate,
Through the chill years ahead,
When Time shall count from the date
That the English began to hate.