Europhobe or Europhile?

Well The Eu has set about removing anything that is 'english' - the latest wheeze is to remove the name 'The English Channel' and replace it with 'The Anglo-French Pond' - what an insult!!. They had a good go at getting rid of our weights and measures and making us totally metric, they want to get rid of our currency, bearing the head of the Queen, and replace it with some dross printed in Brussels.

Its all been a long line of attacks on englishness going back 30 years or more. Its got worse in the last few years, because the Eu now has a more dangerous agenda, the United States of Europe. And thats very, very, dangerous, as we saw with Iraq, invented counties are not very stable. Look at Yugoslavia.

No matter how hard Tito tried to create a ?Yugoslav? identity out of that country?s disparate Slavic parts, Yugoslavia fell apart soon after his death in an orgy of ethnic hatred and revenge. A sense of national identity, a knowledge of who you are and where you come from, seems to be essential for the psychic health of any society. Just as adopted children, however happy with their adoptive parents, long to know about their roots, people who have no pride in their collective past will not be able to deal with the present or the future with unaggressive self-confidence. Lacking a sense of what being English now consists of, the former boss nation is far more likely to express its sense of loss through hatred of others. That is why yoiu are seeing the rise of English nationalism. If the English begin to feel hard done by (and they are doing, were fed up of being called racist for trying to save our culture) - why, for example, are the Scots getting much higher subsidies from the State than the English? Why are ethnic minorities allowed to criticise the English but if we reply in kind we?re being racist - their sense of grievance may turn out to be very dangerous.

To avoid this danger is to help the English - especially the young English, like the tattooed and ear-ringed youths in hoodies - to appreciate that one can be proud of English history, culture and inventiveness without being arrogant or xenophobic. Multicultural education must not be used as an excuse to decry everything English in order to build up the self-esteem of incomers, or to assuage a sense of post-imperial guilt. We English should be proud of ourselves for real achievements, past and present. This I not a recipe for rampant chauvinism. It is quite the opposite. It is a prophylactic against it.

The people who question the english national identity have never read the history of these islands; we, the english are an amazing race, and quite unique. The Industrial Revolution, for example, could only have been started by a Cornishman.

Not sure that my genuine question merited such an acerbic reply, tbh.

I understand that countries have different customs. I don't understand how Europe will 'destroy' them.

The national identity of any nation are those traditions, history, customs and traits that make them different from other nations.

We are clearly not the french - we have a different language, different history, different customs, different traditions, different methods and rules to conduct our society with. We are also clearly not the Germans, or the Japanese, for the same reasons (and ill personally vouch for the japanese example, i lived there for a while).

If you need it explaining, then im wasting my time debating it with you, its not rocket science, just use your own powers of observation.

I am guessing that there is a carve-out clause from the Working Time rules for armed forces, but I will await your answer next week, scaryteacher.

Lincstash, I don't know if you read my earlier post about national identity but I would be interested to know what your response is to my genuine question- what is the british national identity?

A follow up to that would be: leaving aside the issue of immigration, which has already been well-debated here, (just assume for the sake of argument that the european project has has no effect on the number and nationality of people in this country), how would the EU change/ reduce this national identiy?

I'm totally against the Working Time Directive but I'm pro-EU.

The point being Widow that in some professions, you can't stick what is an arbitrary time limit on how many hours are worked, HM Forces being a case in point. How can you have reasonable hours and breaks if you are at sea on a deployment/exercise or patrol? Extrapolate from that to Afghanistan - 'guns down lads, time for a break, never mind we're in the middle of a fire fight - EU says have a break ' - it doesn't work on a practical basis.

This is from the Federation of European Employers:
'The split in social philosophies at the heart of Europe between libertarian 'American-style' values pursued by the UK, Ireland and many new EU states and the more welfare-orientated 'social model' maintained by many continental western European states such as France, Sweden and the Netherlands has recently come to a head over the issue of the UK's continued opt-out from the maximum working week.

The real problem about working time, however, is not the imposition of statutory upper limits, but a social framework that makes it impossible for companies to operate efficiently within these limits. Rather than preventing those who wish to work longer hours from improving their income levels, the focus for EU policymakers should be on increasing the proportion of the employed workforce that are available to carry out their jobs. This means taking a long hard look at how much employee benefits are creating a 'time off' culture and providing financial incentives to spend too much time absent from work.'

I think WetAugust that Turkey is going to be a sticking point for certain EU member states. I find this amusing as they are part of NATO, yet not considered good enough to be part of the EU.

I think the best way to hasten the demise of teh EU is to let in as many member states as possible - evry wider membership.

the place will be such a Tower of Babel that the whole thing will grind to a halt. Definitely admit Turkey as that will bring a whole load of issues that will rile some of our European 'partners' who are less PC than we are.

i raed somewhere that wider membership was actually a policy being pursued by the Foreign Office as Bristain was too scared to oppose a lot of EU legislation and thought undermining the Union in this way could work.

Unfortuanly no one told Gordo so he let the latest members have unrestricted access to work / settle in the UK.

Oh and btw, Lilymaid, you're resorting to another looney left europhile tactic. Since you cant shut me up, but dont want to take any notice of my point of view, you start calling me a BNP member as a type of insult. Its the same strategy as trying to dismiss my arguments as 'racist'.

Sadly, Doesnt work, You WILL address mine and millions of other peoples similar point of view, or you will fuel an ever increasing growth in nationalism and anti european hatred. We wont go away, and were not going to let the EU destroy our nation.

Answer me this: if my anti EU view is so insignificant and wrong, how come Brown chickened out the referendum on the EU Constituion/Lisbon Treaty (and lets not have the BS it was different, they were 95% identical). In fact ill tell you why - because he knew there would be a NO vote, and that woudl have seriously buggered him up, politically.

"Some of the EU laws are not good for the UK. I hope that we can continue to opt out of the Working Time Directive. I don't see that it is any business of those in Brussels how long British workers want to work for. This has already caused problems with junior doctors for example, and if it comes into law, how will they get round the 60 hour weeks that HM Forces put in for example? 'Oh, can't go to sea, it's over 48 hours!' "

They're designed to protect workers, including junior doctors. How many opt out because they really want to, rather than because they have to?

I'd rather have reasonable hours and breaks enforced.Surely an overtired/exhausted doctor can pose a danger to patients.

"The Human Rights laws don't derive from the EU but from the Council of Europe and the UK was a founding member of this organisation and one of the original proponents of the European Convention on Human Rights."

Dont you love the way the europhiles play with semantics? Just like the EU Constitution and the Lisbon Treaty "Its not the same at all, honest, guv..."

Can you spot the european connection here?

ill give you a clue:

"Council of Europe"
"European Convention on Human Rights"

not 'the council of england' and 'the english convention of human rights.............

"Look at the Human Rights laws. They are designed specifically to give foreigners more rights in a country than the citizens of that country. They are designed to undermine the whole concept of citizenship, and destroy the value of it."

The Human Rights laws don't derive from the EU but from the Council of Europe and the UK was a founding member of this organisation and one of the original proponents of the European Convention on Human Rights.

Has MN been invaded by the BNP tonight? I preferred those CUK guys, they were far more amusing and intelligent.

Franca, you're right- Italy is a young democracy, its history shows that it needs to be part of something bigger in order to achieve stability. Spain, too.

I'm a Europhile. But I'm not English, I'm actually Italian. I'd be even more scared about Italy's democracy without Europe.

No, but I'll find out next week.

scaryteacher- interesting question, do you know how other Member States have applied the working time rules to their own armed forces?

You are not going to get an equally balanced budget from the EU - the strain on the Euro is apparent with the PIIGS economies not performing as well as others.

I don't want the UK only to have control over 'certain aspects' of how I live, and the EU having the rest. I want the UK government and Parliament to be the sovereign law under which I live in the UK, not EU law.

Furthermore, you will not get a consensus - don't be naive. Van Rompuy has only been doing this with the Walloons and the Flemish - he has not yet tried it with all the member states; and I am told by someone who knows, that trying to get consenus from all the member states is like herding cats. I am further told by that person that each nation tries to drive it's own agenda and doesn't want to work for consensus. When it looks like there may be agreement, something pops up that knocks it all off track. She tells me that this was very apparent when the French held the Presidency for 6 months, and would hold meetings until the wee small hours without breaks or sustenance, in order to drive through what Paris wanted.

I have had this confirmed further by other people I know who are in a position to know what goes on.

Some of the EU laws are not good for the UK. I hope that we can continue to opt out of the Working Time Directive. I don't see that it is any business of those in Brussels how long British workers want to work for. This has already caused problems with junior doctors for example, and if it comes into law, how will they get round the 60 hour weeks that HM Forces put in for example? 'Oh, can't go to sea, it's over 48 hours!'

I was debating this issue with a work colleague the other day, and was quite baffled by his emphasis on english national identity, national culture and so on.

Baffled because, although I was born and bred here, the fact that I am English is not particularly notable to me - I don't spend any more time reflecting on it than I do thinking about the fact that I am female or have brown hair. I couldn't honestly say I feel proud to be english, but then neither do I feel ashamed or embarrassed about it. Surely it's just an accident of history that I was born here, rather than in Germany or Romania or Iraq. And I can't see anything that makes a country- any country- more than the sum of its parts, or imbues people born on its soil with a particular 'identity'.

I have lived in France and have travelled lots in my work for a multi-national company, and my conclusion is this- people are not 'Brits' or 'Germans' or 'Iraqis'- they are people. Just as being born in England doesn't automatically give you a sense of fair play and a great line in wit, neither does being French make you a protectionist opportunist, or being an Iraqi make you a religious fanatic.

By all means we should rail against corrupt institutions and inefficient bureaucracy (both in Europe and good old England), but the 'them and us' mentality obscures the real issues.

"Illegal immigration has - and has been stated many, many times - nothing to do with the EU"

Oh yes it hase. Because theres no internal border checks, the illegals gain entry via places on the fringes such as morocco or eastern turkey. They then travel unimpeded across the EU till the errive at France, where they set up camp and attack our shores.

For a start, they are supposed to see k asylum at the point they land, but they dont want to, because all the otehr Eu coutnries are a lot togher and stricter - they head to the UK to milk the cash cow.

Then you get the complicity of the French in doing nothing about the invaders massing on the french coast, and just hoping they manage to get over here , and then there not the French's problem any more.

The EU and its lack of borders, and the failure of the French to do its legal duty, has made illegal immigration a doddle.

And, btw, thats another reason not to be in the EU - foreigners, and this is a classic case, look after there own countries and screw us. The French behave appallingly in this respect, and cant be trusted to be honorable or even simply legal. The French will stab us in the back whenever they can, and do, frequently. Need i mention there illegal ban on our beef after the BSE crisis, as a classic example?

@nightbynight

You really havent clicked onto the gangmaster problem have you? The whoel point is they employ them BECUSE they are illegal, they pay then peanuts (and i mean peanuts, like £10 a day), and then charge them for lodgings (which is usually 10 to a room in some dump). The gangmaster done WANT hem here legally, the fact there illegal gives them power and control over the illegals, and means they have no protection from the law, so the gangmaster can do what they like.

The gandmasters, the farmers, and trhe supermarkets like it the way it is. The only people who lose out are the localsd, who have lost there jobs to the illegals, and the inland revenue.

Apart from that, the destruction of the seasonal jobs has created a massive problem in rural farming areas because those jobs were usually done by women with kids as pin money or school leavers to get experience.

Apart from that, you still dont get it. There here ILLEGALLY!! Why should we cancel the rules for them? why cant the obey the same immigration rules that everyone else does? Once you start throwing your hand in making them legal JUST because they managed to evade the authorities, then you just might as well abandon all border security. Allowing them to stay when there illegal is like paying ransom to kidnappers, once the word gets round you become a major target for them.

There ILLEGAL!! THROW THEM OUT and mark there paperwork PERSONA NON GRATA!!!

we've been stopped twice at Dover in 4 years leaving the UK, and both times, when it was explained dh is UK military we were waved on.

We've had the boot checked a couple of times at Dunkirk coming back, but that was just after illegal immigrants were found in the container bringing Blair's new car back to UK, so that is perhaps understandable! Nothing to do with my wholesale importing of chocolate!

We get checked pretty much every time we go through Hull/Rotterdam.

'suddenly you're at dover, with mirrors under your car, searches, illegal immigrant checks,'

I go through Dover several times a year and have never had this going out of the UK from Dover, or coming in to Dover. I have seen it happen at Dunkirk however, as the problem of immigrants trying to get into vehicles to come across isn't just restricted to Calais.

Mirrors under your car - fair enough, depending upon what the current security level is. When I was a kid the family car was regularly stopped at the gates to the RN establishment my Dad worked at and we lived in and the Gatekeeper would search under the car with a mirror. I have it done regularly in Brussels when I go to the Doc or the Dentist. I'd far rather a mirror under the car than a bomb blowing me to perdition.