Tory Policy on Inclusion in Education

I agree Peachy; I taught kids with a range of SN needs, but never felt I had received sufficient training on their dx or their needs thereafter. You also have to include ebds within that as these can cause some of the most horrendous problems, and mainstream isn't equipped to cope with some of the damaged youngsters with whom we deal everyday.

Interesting post ST.

I think that the barriers are so varied that no system of integration can cater for all. Autistic kids at teh comp who have issues ith attendance are fetched by the police, yet when you dig they just cannot cope with the sheer mass of pupils entering teh school. Halls have projectors that make whirring noises most people cannot hear but upseet some asd kids, sports involve muddy areas unsuitable for wheelchairs.....

the problem from my understanding is this: SN is a label that means only that a child has special needs. Within that label lies the entire range of abilties and personalities. Someone with a high IQ and no issues except for a need for a wheelchair is going to need a very different system than a child with say GDD and VI and ASD (a friend's child who satrted in MS against har wishes).
There is nothing homogenous about kids with SN but services need them to fit nicely into boxes. Trouble is, even when you get two kids with the same level of need and the same dx their underlying personality means they may well suit different environments- a natuirally buoyant child who learns through tjeir peers and is outgoing will fare better in MS than a naturally introverted shy child who has an innate dislike of buy environments even before their SN. Kids with no SN or ones that can be absorbed easily into a MS environment get choice of schools at application satge (theoretically anyway) why shuoldn't a child with more specific needs?

WRT to the OP, I don't think there is any party that would close all SN schools but SN provision is expensive and as a dad said to me today his child is safe in his unit- no LEA would even attempt to force a child with severe GDD and ASD presenting as he does into MS, even the SNY struggles. Those that would suffer would be those already amrginalised by a alck of provision- the kids with 10 hour satements, syndromes calssed as borderline. They are already the children who cannot get DLA, SD respite, holiday club access- a sort of lost group.

Vicar would your child have nbefitted from opne like ds3 attends I wonder, where a child can access as much MS as they are able but there is always a specilasist base and they take a ta into ms with them?

Our LEA is good as lea's go and we have mostly those units with one very severe unit and otherwise MS or there is a specilaist asd unit but everyone tells me it is so much demand that it has been able to take only the most severely affected % of candidates and as such a good deal of children are then left uncatered for still.

Had the school had any verbal children ds3 would attend that school but he was just elarning to talk when he transferred at 5.5.

I agree that the ones in the early years of school do better in MS- I was told outright that Juniors would enver even contemplate taking ds3, and most children here go to sepcilaist input at that stage (separate infant / junior provision here still, so end of yr 2). I think for soem the expressed aim of being a member of their community ids valid and that it is nive but also had ds3 remained there any longer then he would ahve been far more damaged. We got him out just in time.

I taught at a comp in Cornwall where we had wheelchair access, and a stannah/wheelchair lift to access the floor my classroom was on. We had a unit where those with really special needs were taught, and they were integrated into the main tutor groups for tutor time and assemblies. We had a fab SENCO who knew her stuff and fought for funding. Some of the students who had hearing problems had special microphones that the teachers had to wear, or if it was a lesson with video, then we draped it over the TV. We were given info on who was SA or SA plus; but the training we had on special needs such as ADHD, Aspergers, Dyspraxia and Autism was lacking. Our TAs did a fantastic job and invariably knew more about the special needs than did the teachers.

However, imo and ime, this was not enough. The system fails those with SN, at whatever end of the spectrum; but this cannot be addressed without sufficient funding and that is not around. SN provision also needs to be driven as others have said by what the child needs, and not by the prevailing orthodoxy of either everyone mainstream, or everyone in SN schools. If a child is doing well in mainstream at primary, then that is great; but take that child from a small primary and place him/her into a large noisy comp, and you may see that the situation changes, especially as lessons are taught my specialist teachers, not the same person all day. Some kids I only saw for an hour a week; how could I hope to give them, plus the other 29/31 in the class the attention and support they needed for that time?

see thats the thing - i would have preferred my son in a specialist educational setting than the version of inclusion he got, and is getting now at college.

inclusion in our case meant - 'there you go son - your included, now get on with it.'

inclusion is a great idea - but in practice its not working. in school my sons teachers resented their experience being questioned, they had very fixed ideas about what autism means, and were not prepared to meet me half way.

its all too half arsed. for inclusion to work then schools would HAVE to follow the SEN code of practice - which i have found in every single school i tried DS at they all flouted openly and had a "so what?" attitude.
crap.
so while 50 % of us are wanting to keep SN schools and even specialist schools, 50% like your friend want inclusive education. none of it works. they should scrap the whole bloody system and start again. the child should come first. my son was too mainstream for a special school and too special needs for mainstream. many many people i know are in the same boat. inclusion could work, but there isnt enough money in the system for training, equipment, etc.

he was nice, but not really helpful. he couldnt really do very much - i think he wrote a (weak) letter or two, but i still got nowhere.

vicar - dd2 has cp and an iq of 142. despite the ed psych report i was told she wasn't eligible for the gifted programme because she can't hand-write (she uses a lap-top).

op, can i ask how old your friend's daughter is? i'm just curious tbh. i'm guessing quite young and early stages of formal education - yr 1 or 2?

it's quite common for children to manage very well in ms for the first few years, with their experiences becoming less and less satisfactory, particularly where ld's are present. a lot of parents with very positive infant school experiences opt for special schooling for junior school/ secondary.

i'd be really interested in hearing from her if her daughter is older and they are having success with ms into secondary with a retts dx. it's a useful anecdote for me to be able to offer when asked in the future tbh!

VicarInaTuTu was your MP helpful?

i have a child with SEN but with above average IQ and should have access to education.

problem is no where exists for him.

50% people will want special schools
50% want inclusive education

the ideal would be to choose whats best for your child. but cash strapped LEAs and Learning and skills councils wont fund, ironically they seem to prefer to spend money on tribunals than just fund whats needed.

mine is in college now and im still fighting the good fight. so many mainstream schools and colleges openly flout the disability discrimination laws that its gobsmacking. ive met my MP with this very issue. they really dont have an answer. there isnt one. dont vote for a party on the premise that theyll change anything - the money isnt there to do it.

if your friend wants 100% inclusion in mainstream, then most schools would need to be knocked down and rebuilt. if I think fo the few primaries near me, none are wheelchair friendly(even the one ds went to that is newish in comparison)
I would hate to think any one would try to take a way the sn school option from parents, don't we have enough to contend with.
bit of topic but even modern new sn schools are not built with inclusion in mind.
the LEA want to move dd for post 16 to a local college(sn) and I am going to have to fight it. I have
looked round the college twice, and for someone who can walk it is great, but the amount of barriers they have for people in wheelchairs is ridiculous, the first thing you see when entering is 2 flights of stairs.(excuse small rant)

I know what you meant, Scary teacher, and I feel the same way. I know that I could not give my own child what he needs in my own classroom even given my own knowledge of him, BSl and his abilities. I would certainly not be able to accommodate a blind child in a way that would adequately support them in their learning. I felt that I completely failed a child with ASD who was in my class last year (he had no statement, so no extra support). It was an example - and a relevant one. People with sensory impairments need specialist equipment to access teaching and the money will not adequately cover it - whatever it is.

Zapostrophe - if you read my post, you would have noticed that I put, for example, after the comment about my inability to teach a blind child; I was not commenting on the ability of a blind child to learn. Many non sighted people may indeed use technology to learn, but I had never come across it; nor do I think that my LEA had the money to provide that technology.

Given their addiction to choice, I doubt the Tories are going to take the choice to include in mainstream away (though it is definitely worth writing to them and clarifying).

I think it is very sad that parents are being forced to send SN kids into mainstream because all the special schools are closing.

My two with ASD are doing well in their m/s school but IMHO it would be madness to assume that this would work for all children with SN. I believe parents should be able to choose which environment best suits their child.

BTW OP- hopemyour friend doesn't mind you osting sections of her email on MN!

opting to send a child not coping in MS to SNU isn't segragation: it is liberation. Segregation is enforced separation, a child can be more seaprate from his peers when badly included in MS than in any SNU.

completely agree.

choice is exactly what is needed, not pushing "inclusion for all"

it is every child's (parent's) right to have a MS place, if that is suitable.

it should equally be every child's right to have a SN place, if that is what is needed.

It is indeed lifeis.

I am firm suppoter of my friend's battle to include her child, and of my own for ds3 to be in specialist palcemernt.

Choice is what matters.

sorry - that wasn't remotely related to the OP really, but I think I am saying that I can see the difficulty in having a party policy on this given the situation - and I believe that for inclusion to truly work then education needs overhauling as a whole. Teachers are constantly urged these days to personalise learning, but while class sizes and paperwork demands are as they are, this is simply not feasible - and it should be for ALL children regardless of SN or not.

My DS does not have the major barriers to being in a ms school that some of your dc have. He is profoundly deaf and, although I know a lot of people send their deaf children to mainstream school successfully, I did not hesitate to send him to a school for the deaf. For me, it is largely a matter of economics. If he was sent to a MS school, the school would get the allowance laid down in his statement of SN. This would go into the school budget and may, or may not, be spent directly on what my DS needs (it is not ring-fenced and can be spent on any number of things - just as long as the child gets the provision laid down in the statement). This versus 50 children in a school where ALL of the staff are trained and ALL can sign, where many of the staff are excellent deaf role models themselves and where EVERY part of the school is acoustically suitable and set up for the specific needs of deaf children I know where I believe my child would be best educated.

The school is wonderful and has close links with nearby ms schools. He is not 'segregated' and he has many hearing friends. I just believe sincerely that he is receiving a better education in a special school than he would in a ms environment.

I have, however, been quite strongly criticised for this decision by other parents of deaf children. It's a matter of personal choice.

DS3 entered SNu a year ago next wek.

Since then he ahs:

learned to read and write, writng is very basic still but reading is good enough to read for example the newspaper on club penguin (you know how it is..... he's obsessed with club penguin so reads it, whereas a book is a no no)

His speech ahs come on hugely and he has mastered 3 extra sounds

He won an all- school comp to make an easter card today (admittedly at home with me and I sued to teach crafts in kids clubs, but for teh first tiome ever he sat down a did it (porato printing and gluind mainly))

His attention span has doubled

every day when I walk through teh MS gates with him though to colect the boys he regresses back to where he was a year ago, flapping all teh time, bolting etc.

I'm with Clarissimo here.

dd1 woudn't cope in MS regardless of what help you gave her.

the only way she'd cope would be to be segregated, and then that's not inclusion, is it?

dd1 is currently at a SN school, and we're heading for an Educational tribunal in July to keep her there.

we moved across the country 18 months ago to keep her out of mainstream, and will be moving again next month now we have found the school she needs.

She is at a tiny school now, and has a full time 1-1 (all the children there do)

dd1 spends half her time in a classroom on her own with 1-1 (all the children have their own classrooms) and the other half being in a class of up to 3 children (each 1-1 there as well, so children always fully supported)

dd1 is ASD, and fairly severe, but not as severe as the above sounds.

BUT, this is the only way she can relax enough to be able to learn. if she is not in this kind of environment, she clams up, shuts down, and disengages entirely. she spent the whole of last year in a SN school, with a class size of 10 (with 3 teachers). by the end of the year she had not progressed one jot (school were not even aware of her abiliites, tbh)

in one term at her new school, dd1 has learnt to:

dress/undress
wash up (water phobic) and set the table
make her lunch

and that's just the vocational stuff (I sya just - the dressing thing is a real boost for me )

educationally, she has:

learnt to count with reference
learnt the alphabet/phonics, and is beginnign to read
is consistently meeting all P scale targets, and is actually working at NC level 1 in some areas (am at this. dd1 is 5, she is in Yr 1. she is actually holding her own in some areas )

but none of this was possible in MS, or even in a SNU attached to MS, it is only by tailorinng he reducation so very exactly to her needs that this has come about.

1747 sorry

anything but futuristic!