Britain's pensioners are the poorest in Europe.

ivanahoe does this mean you would want the current way of partitioning tax revenues to be changed? i.e cut the amount of money in the defense budget and shift the savings to fund the increase in pensions?

i am trying to find out out how you would fund this increase, please could you just say rather than respond with a rhetorical question.

also, would you want to see people in receipt of other benefits see similar increases? if not, why not?

Means testing may sound like a good idea, but it is incredibly expensive. Universal benefits are far cheaper and more effective.

If you means test, you end up spending huge amounts of money on admin. Money that could have gone to those in need. You also deter a lot of people who would qualify from applying, not least because the forms are complex.

'From each according to his ability, to each according to his need is what we should be striving for, and that needs to be means tested. Why should RIchard Branson and Sir Fred Goodwin receive the same level of public support as a pensioner who has spent their entire life caring for disabled offspring, for example.'

Well put, stressed! I couldn't agree more!

I happen to think the EU is a good thing.

I feel we have a moral obligation to support those in developing nations, without whose labour force we'd be even more screwed, and particularly former British colonies who, thanks to past British foreign policies are now FUBAR.

ivanahoe, where would the money come to pay for all of this? How would NI contributions/taxation/funding structures be adjusted?

what about people in receipt of other benefits, i.e. JA, housing benefit - wouold they have their benefits similarly adjusted? If not, why not?

What is this average wage that is being touted about. Where I live, the average salary is around £13,000 pounds a year. SO if a pensioner gets state pension, pension credits, HB, CTB, free dentists, prescriptions, travel etc. then they are doing alright, to be honest.

Why should you suddenly expect more just because you reach 65 or whatever? From each according to his ability, to each according to his need is what we should be striving for, and that needs to be means tested. Why should RIchard Branson and Sir Fred Goodwin receive the same level of public support as a pensioner who has spent their entire life caring for disabled offspring, for example.

'Some pensioners are well off. Some people own their own homes. Many are not and do not. You may as well say poverty doesn't exist in sub-Saharan Africa because there are wealthy people there.'

That's why I feel there should be means-testing in place instead of just increasing it across the board.

Nearly every other public fund is (DLA excepted).

Sir Michael Marmot, who is THE leading expert on the gap between rich and poor and the ill-health caused by poverty, calculates that the UK state pension only provides 2/3 of what you need to stay in good health. It's not enough to live on. It's not enough to have a nutritious diet and get out of the house, maintaining social contact and physical activity.

That's absolutely shameful for a developed country that had the fourth largest economy in the world (had because this may have changed with the financial crisis, haven't seen any updated figures).

Some pensioners are well off. Some people own their own homes. Many are not and do not. You may as well say poverty doesn't exist in sub-Saharan Africa because there are wealthy people there.

Agree ssd, perhaps Ivanhoe needs to reflect on 'to each according to his needs'. Having said that, I do have some sympathy for the passion for pensioners. ALthough my parents are better off than I can ever hope to be, I know that's not the same for all and the health services they experience can be appalling.

Anyway, agree the issue here is poverty.

she's best ignored, I think she must be a 15 yr old boy trying to wind up people here for kicks, surely someone can't be that short sighted and ignorant.

She is also ignorant, as 'and the old rating system, abolished by Thatcher in 1980,' wasn't actually abolished until CC was bought in, and that was in 1990 - I was paying domestic rates until then, and I had my first job after graduating as a Community Charge Officer in 1990.

'The point im making is the council tax increase fund local communities, income tax increases dont.' Where do you think the money comes from for education? This may be administered by the Local Authority, but is paid for from income tax. Local Authorities are given what is known as a Revenue Support Grant form central govt each year (from taxation income) and can decide how they spend it.

Yes, one does the CTAX band of a property before one buys it, what you may not know is how that amount will alter each year, but we never knew that with the rate poundage either.

As for people who are working pay in, so should get pension out - Fred the Shred was working and paying NI. Do you think he should be entitled too?

Forget trying, chil. It's like teaching a dog to read with this poster: a pointless endeavour.

Anyone who disagrees is a Tory or short-sighed or doesn't understand or you get all this spew about Thatcher if you don't want to just hand out £200-£350 to everyone just because they're over a certain age.

Chibi: I think Ivanahoe mentioned the figure of £250 a week state pension minimum for a single person or £300/£350 for a couple.

Personally, I think that Ivanahoe may be a little bit deranged or maybe just naive, but her grasp of the real world seems to be tenuous, in my opinion. And I am not a Tory, in fact, on the other thread about left/right leanings the only person as far to the left as me on the political graph thing was STALIN, causing huge hilarity in here.

just out of curiosity ivanahoe, what would you deem an adequate amount of money for pensioners to recieve?

how would taxation/ni contributions/funding structures be adjusted to allow for this?

would groups in reciept of other benefits (ie JA, housing benefit etc) see similar rises?

If so, how would taxation/ni contributions/funding structures be adjusted to allow for this?

If not, why not? Why would they be any less deserving than pensioners?

I really would like to know your thoughts here, please do not quote my entire post back to me and then say I'm a Tory who will never understand.

Anyone who thinks they're going to get as much out of it as they put it is deluded.

Reality bites.

But I ain't working even harder to support people unless they need it.

My former landlord is on a £27000/annum final salary scheme and he's only 62.

He's got a house I can only dream about and just sank 50 grand into it.

He goes travelling more than I did when I was a kid with a well-paid job, an even better paid husband, no kids and a rucksack on my back sleeping in tents or under the stars.

He took the £267 he got to heat a home he wasn't even living in last year and went away on safari for the weekend.

Means-test it all and means-test it now and if people don't like it, well, join the club!

People pay NI. It's not all just about a state pension. That's just part of it.