TORIES

That all ties in with what i had heard. The reason transition towns are so interested in Cuba is that they suddenly had to learn to cope without oil, when the Russians stopped supplying them. It is a bit like the massive problems that Transition towns anticipate hitting us all when our energy supplies start to be really squeezed.

The power of community tells the story of this very sudden transition. It was clearly a huge shock and a lot of people suffered, but the whole way that they run their economy now is based on having to find ways of doing it without oil.

The stuff I have seen seems to indicate that they are all heavily into growing vegetables, and use permaculture a lot. - don't know if you saw evidence of this.

I think meat consumption is supposed to be pretty low too.

Your account of the shiny new hospital is interesting. It is claimed that the health of the people really improved after the crisis hit. People had to start walking or cycling, couldn't eat so much, and had to do a lot more physical work. What also seems to have happened is that the health care and education were all brought right into the center of the communities, and the doctors and teachers live where they work.

I am wondering if in some ways it was like my experience of Rural Ireland in the 60s. There we had a lifestle were there were very few cars, there was a limited range of stuff to buy, the pace of life was much slower, and people spent a lot more time around each other.

I think it was friendlier and more fun!

The way we live now is just a moment in time. Things were different before and it will be different again.

Cuba was very interesting though when you are holed up in an all inclusive resort you probably don't get to see the real picture. I lot of inforamtion I found on Tripadvisor before I went. Everyone recommends to take toiletries and leave spare clothes etc as they just can't get hold of them. They earn 1 Peso a day but everyone usually tips a peso a time for the maid , bar staff etc so they end up earning more than doctors. This seems a bit screwed up too.

We did go to Havana and parts of the city look like a bombsite - but the old town they are restoring for the tourists. Amongst a really run down part was the biggest, shiniest hopsital - apparently they have very good health care.

We did pass apartments blocks etc on the way there which would back up suggestions that they have very basic conditions to live in. They also have very little car ownership and public transport so everyone hitches. They even have inpspectors to make sure that Govt vehicles pick up hitchhikers.

The people were lovely and tourism is really necessary for them. The Cuban history is pretty interesting. It is a very poor country though. Did feel a bit guilty that they 'give us they best' as the holiday rep said.

I didn't know that about Cuba (don't know much about it tbh)- interesting. Should I ever get this critique written (aarggghhhhhh) then I might have a look at Cuba just from a gaps-in-my-knowledge interest. I suppose when my degree is RE Cuba's not going to flag up is it?

Ski I just thought I would ask to find out directly- am not good at reading between lines so sometimes it helps me I guess. There have been people on Mn who have told me I belong in a workhouse etc and it can be hard to know via a message board where people are coming from.

FWIW I pretty much loathe the JK era as well. My experience in the community is that individuals usually have so much more to them when you get to know them, but certainly there are some that I could not realistically wotk with in any productive way and I don't really understand that in a person. It was few though- most people,when given a legup and a bit of modelling made differences.

My own experiences were that the famillies with addiction issues were the ones I couldn't hel pbut that may be chance as I am aware of very limited experience in that area.

really interested to see peachy's comments on sure start. I did a few art sessions with some sure start groups some years back, and it felt like a place where this kind of co-operative effort could start.

It was something I tried to get going when my daughter was a baby, but there was no real structure to support it then.

Also interested to see 2old has been to Cuba. I am in Transition Towns and they all get very excited about Cuba. Have seen the "power of community" a couple of times.

How did you find it?

Elephants always manages to say things which make me think "I wish I had said that" I really liked the little piece on selfishness. I think this gets to the heart of the question.

I have just been writing a piece Nudge, Level or Transition? This goes back to the starting question on this thread. what would a tory government be like. This post is about some of the books that I know people from different parties are reading.

The reading material doesn't necessarily tell us what they may do, but it does tell us something about the way that they are thinking.

The Spirit Level comes back to the selfishness point. I think it shows very clearly that an unequal society is damaging for all of us, not just the poor.

There is a point at which self interest and generosity meet. I think we need to look for that.

I see huge numbers of people who never work...coming out of school, getting 'up the duff' and getting a council house in my area. What I would like to point out is that most of them don't bother voting for anyone so Labour certainly haven't bought their votes, despite the fact that these are the people that benefit (no pun intended ) most.

I agree skihorse - it's been nice - not personal. I really must go and walk the dogs - they are both camped out next to me, watching my every move- but I've been enjoying this chat!

Skihorse - we went to Cuba last year and we couldn't believe everyone earns the same - around £30 a month! So the 'rich' ones are the ones who have access to the tourists and the tips.

Bloody hell - it's a screwed world!

Btw, I just wanted to say thank you to everybody who's been participating in this discussion - it's been so nice to be able to exchange views and ideas without it descending in to the usualy personal insults and insinuations of babies-on-toast for breakfast type stuff!

scarletlily haha, I'm having children with a Glaswegian... our grandchildren will blame Margaret Thatcher for "everything" which ever goes wrong for them! Very odd about OP's husband being unable to get a job as a teacher being as there appear to be more staff in schools right now than there ever have been...

peachy I just think Labour have done nothing but widen the gap between rich and poor... and when once perhaps I floated at around in the lower 40%, if things carry on like this I'll be in the lowest 10%. My generation will become the first when instead of our parents saying "first person in the family to go to university" type stuff, it's "first person in the family to buy a season-ticket for Jeremy Kyle". The gap will be too wide to ever be breached.

I'm still not sure why you think I'm anti welfare state although perhaps the word "state" is indeed the problem. Safety net is great - is needed - I've used it myself, I hope I'm never as low as to need it again, but as 2old4this pointed out earlier, we have enormous swathes of the population reliant on handouts to fund lifestyles they'e not earned... Labour bought the votes. That (I believe) is undeserved and unecessary welfare.

The irony of all of this is that I'm an expat living in a truly socialist state where a binman doesn't earn a huge amount less than a dentist for example. I wonder how much our Nu Labour champagne socialist mn Labour voters would like that! Equality for all... but not that filthy man down the street who does the bins. As I (need to) keep stating, it's really easy to want equality for all when you know that "equality" will never reach you!

HappyMummyOfOne Thank you! Exactly what I have been saying. Support for those who need it (disabled etc) but not for the long term bone idle!

When my daughter was 17 and quit college (angry) I went to the job agencies. They helped her because they saw that I she was serious about actually finding work. They said they have so many people who waste their time purely to satisfy the requirements that the are actually looking for a job. They arrange interviews and they just don't turn up!

As the country is virtually bankrupt I don't see that we can afford the current state of affairs indefinetly.

When I was a teengager in the early eighties, though we were were sexually active, we didn't have babies.We were terrified of what our parents would think and we wouldn't have been given a home as soon as the baby was born. We worked or went to uni etc. 30 years later, I'm still in the same 'leafy' area and the kids are coming straight out of the local comp (ok not all! but enough!), into council flats with their babies. If we don't address the situation now what will it be like in 30 years time? Will anyone actually be working????

Peachy - that is def true about the rent and the gambling addiction - doesn't have to pay until he seeks professional help.

OP claimed her husband's previous job was a teacher (before becoming a HIP inspector). Apparently, it's the Tories fault that he can't get a job as a teacher. Really?

Let me see... Labour came to power in 1997. HIPs became law in 2007 (for 4 bed houses). So 10 years as an unemployed teacher under Labour - yet this is somehow the Tories' fault?

By the OP's logic, given that Mmargaret Thatcher was Prime Minister for a "mere" 11 years, this should be a sufficiemtly short period of time to absolve her of any blame for the changes she wrought. She was, after all, having to deal with the mess left by the previous administration.

Child benefit is universal, MummyOfOne.

Actually my experience of surestart was huigely positive- it funded my post for homestart and we made real tangible changes to people'slives. Not just as someimagine the lowerincome WC ones- the postcodes wecovered had a number of quite affluent pockets and they were as welcome,and took as much advantage of,services as anyone else.

Each surestart gets to set itsown priorities and funding areas, but ours for EG paid for a SLT for peoplewho could not get access to one, we ahd family groupson a drop in basis where I would be there to helpwith whatever Mum needed (usually Mum) from job applications to someone to cry to and a playworker was provided.

We had an allotment initiative where peopleelanred to GYOlong before it was trendy (lovely to see the kids do that) nursery palcements forthe very most socially disadvantaged children, and ewe were making inroads- in fact some of our helped parents ended up on the staff which was a great thing IMO.

The funding didn'tjust go to one area of society either:weworked with peopleisolated, terminally ill,disabled, with PND, facing seriosu health issues fortheir kids,those who had no parenting skills handed down and needing someone to model them. On the Homestart side alone it was worked out that every £8 spent on us saved £80 to the public purse.

I get that Ski and your aspirations and mine match.

But if say you were hit by a bus tomorrow or your children became ill you would then benefit from a welfare state, no?
It is something that provides insurance for you if you were ever in need.

I don'tlike the bottom aspect of what it attracts, but I think that the intentions and provision it makes for those who need it are a venberable aim- those who have no alternatioves or who wish to work but who have lost itfor somereason. The only people who can afford to be anti welfare state tbh are the peoplewho incomes are superrich as even decent care of the typen ds3 might need costs in excess of £500 a week.

Are you actually anti welfare state compeltely,then? I always thought you were just anti scroungers.

I truly hope the Tories get in, it can be no worse than it is now. The Tories have strong family ethics, usually policies that provide incentives to those who work to support themselves and I believe they have the balls to change the benefit system that Labour has set up to be a lifestyle choice for millions. How can it be feasible as a country to let people stay on JSA or IS for years on end? Those that truly cannot work due to disabilities/children with disabilities should be supported, thats what the welfare state was for, but those who choose not to work shouldnt expect to be supported for years by taxpayers.

As for the OP, HIP's have not been the success everyone hoped they would be and I doubt it will make any difference if the system is changed.

The CTF was a gimmick by labour to get votes - pure and simple. Those that wanted to save for their childs future will do so anyway without the need for the government to start them off. Those who the CTF voucher was aimed at to get votes will probably never top up the fund and it will be worthless anyway by the time it can be accessed.

The 15 hours nursery time was set up to provide all children with pre school education should parents wish to take advantage of this prior to starting formal school. It was not set up as childcare as such.

Surestart, the money could be better spend elsewhere so makes sense to change this. The healthy eating grant and surestart grant for subsequent children could also be abolished along with other areas i'm sure.

As for child benefit, am torn on this. Ideally it should be universal regardless of household income, why should those who choose not to work get it yet those who support themselves dont. Its meant for the children anyway.

Peachy What I mean is, if I can't get a better economic break then I will be raising my children on some sink-estate somewhere and I'll wonder if any of it was worth it. :-/

Peachy Soz... but you can't convert me! I'd like to believe that I won't always be in the shit as it were and I want the chance to improve my life. I don't think Labour can do that for me. On saying that though, if Labour do get back in I'm severely tempted to down tools and get myself some free education whilst the shit hits the fan elsewhere.

scarletlily The economy is totally buggered. I'm not sure how anybody can fix it right now but we cannot carry on regardless - even the band have stopped playing. Billions upon billions of quantative easing and yet allegedly we are only out of recession but a fraction? Now if that isn't indicitive of a double-dip I don't know what is... but of course it'll be the Tories who are blamed for cutting the bloated public sector.

I'm sorry if perhaps I missed a post earlier in the thread, but I was curious as to what OP's husband's job was before the "ficticious" job of HIPs inspector came to be?

Sensible Ski,but also exactly where we arefrom a very different causality and system.

Can you not see (and I amnot trying to convert you, not only pointless but IMO pretty rude) that there is some benefit for you in a decent welfare state though, becuase it is exactly people struggling to pay the bills who are hit hardest by disability, sickness etc? An insurance plan really.

Brown's failed economic policies are going to make all of us worse off:

"One of the world?s biggest credit ratings agencies said that Britain?s ongoing ?weak economic environment? and Gordon Brown?s failure to properly reform the financial system had led to its unprecedented decision to ?downgrade? Britain?s banks.

The warning from Standard & Poor?s sparked an immediate slump in the stock market and the value of the pound last night.

The international creditworthiness of the country?s banking system is now on a level which is equivalent to poorer countries such as Chile and Portugal.

It could now cost banks more to borrow money on the wholesale financial markets ? with consumers facing higher prices for mortgages and loans as a result...

...The downgrading of Britain?s banks could be followed by the entire country?s credit-rating being reduced. The credit-rating determines the cost of borrowing on international financial markets.

A downgrade would mean the Government has to pay more to borrow money which could have a major impact on the country?s finances. " Here.

As an aside, I think it is fair enough for people to vote for the party which they perceive as being most likely to benefit them and their situation. But, if people do that (which is their absolute right), then it's a bit hypocritical then to decry others as "only looking after their own interests" (a charge usually, but not exclusively, laid at the door of Conservatives).

Peachy That's exactly what I'm saying. I've been in the somewhat unenviable position in the last few years of not having enough money to put food on the table... and when that happens, finding 50 cents to stick in the charity jar is pie-in-the-sky.

If I were in the position of being what I consider to be loaded (although according to mn, 50k is poverty! ) then I'd happily give my money away. But right now I need to feed my family.

Since when didnt peplewith medicalconditions pay rent?very odd-maybe it is one council but allthe ones I have dealt with assess on income alone. I know people with alltypes of disorder paying rent.

Amnot doubting you 2old but sounds very strange.

I couild list just as sad stories of non benefit claimants- like my friends H who ahs never claimed in his life and whose entrepreneutrial skills have just earned him timeon remand with nigh on certain without hellfreezing voer conviction for fraud,sextrafficking (wrodsfail me), possibly rape and harassment (they werelong separated, he lived elsewhere).

Plus it is obviosuly likely that peoplewith poor coping strategies, duniousmoralityy,lower IQ etc are more likely to end up in HA accom or on benefits. The problem is separating those from the people who are staright up without causing undue stress(eg massive delays in obtaining payments,constant re interviews) and also without negatively affecting those whoa re their dependants.

If we can do that idbe forst in the queue of course- but am not sure how.

Thank you skihorse - thought I was alone!

Ultimately we will all vote for who we believe will give us the best deal. But I don't agree that Labour has benefited the poor,maybe in the short term but not long term.

As I've said we can only comment on what we have experienced, witnessed etc. Just because you haven't seen child neglect doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I know two people who work in schools in deprived areas and the stories they tell are heart breaking.

My opinions on some benefits claimants have been coloured by some people I know. One girl, first in her family to work and pay tax had a drunken one night stand and got pregnant. She now lives in a 2 bed flat that costs the council £800 a month. If you factor in other benefits and the fact she's not paying tax anymore that probably equates to £2000 per month ! Just for the sake of a free condom! And she smokes and complained the flat was f*ing tiny!

Someone who lives in a council flat and works part time, her husband works full time. He blew his entire wages in the bookies in one day before Christmas. The council have told her she doesn't have to pay her (subsidised) rent and council tax because gambling addiction is classed as a medical condition! I'm all for helping people but this is surely taking the piss!

Oh and I dont like the bought votes thing: it denies the ability to think of anyone who votes against the voters personal viewpoint. That's unfair. It also makes it seem that only happens with Labour whereas in fact I know a fair few people who will vote Tory because it will suit their situation better. Same thing.

We get nothing (other than CB) from the state. Hell will freeze over however before I vote Tory.

I know what she means

She means (and I agree to a large extent practically if certainly not idealistically) that it is easier to take others needs into account when your own are provided for first. far easier to feed the poor when you are already sated.

Is that right seahorse?

I think that is true but as I said before, part of protecting yourself is in ensuring something is there to catch you if the ground opens up because who knows what tomorrow brings for any of us?