China: Where Every Tree Hides ‘an Enemy’

Terrifying! I fear for our future with all this big tech concentrating and maximising control into the hands of a few. Did you see the Australian MP talking about subscription life and how it makes us dependent and renters rather than having ownership, freedom of everything from music to photos and all of our personal data? Very scary
ETA: Alex Antic is the guy.

What I find more alarming is why we aren't developing our own tech, why are we so reliant on America and China.

It's not like we don't have talent, we invented the internet and the search engine. Why are we so far behind?

Even infrastructure we are now almost third world. Our trains don't compare to the Chinese or Japanese and it bothers me that the home of infrastructure is the UK yet in the last 40 years it's virtually vanished. It costs over a pound a mile to travel on the train and it's still not fully electrified. Our roads are pot hole ridden and dirty, streets are untidy and litter ridden

Our energy network is still years behind where it should be, so things like DATA centres are a dream rather than reality.

For all the criticism of China, they haven't gone around the world starting wars but instead have invested heavily in infrastructure, healthcare and technology. China now has an operational maglev train and that is something we were talking about in the 1980s. Why has a British idea never even entered the design stage in the UK but is now operational in China.

Tesla, for all the criticism of Musk, is amazing bit of innovation. It was a revolution and we've not caught up then years on.

The UK needs to invest heavily in infrastructure and we need to free up those who innovate . The average UK employee of open AI earns nearly 3 million a year. If that's not an incentive to get behind technology I don't know what is.

What are your thoughts on the article @MsAmerica ?

I think China paving the way is long gone. Although they do seem to make and sell a lot of the kit to other countries. Some Chinese companies have UK sanctions on them for the part they play in surveillance in XJ. ( Erik Prince come to mind on that, but sorry, you need to look that one up yourself.)

I recall a few years back it was Oxford Street in London that held the record for most cameras. Not any more though, and it was just in the news that they are upgrading.

Millions will have their faces scanned while shopping in Oxford Street this Christmas | News UK | Metro News

And while I agree with you on being anti surveillance, because I am too, but not to the core, this TRUTH from a few days back suggests that is far from universal.

"Friday, October 23, 2026 4:41 AM Truth Social

The Reflecting Pool is 85% full, and looking really good! It hasn't worked properly since 1922, but will now. We have cameras set up to stop any potential Vandalism, including the grassed areas, which were destroyed by chemical poisoning with a large, and very inappropriate, phrase. The grass was completely replaced! President DONALD J. TRUMP"

This bit here "We have cameras set up to stop any potential Vandalism," just seems totally casual to me. And this is the guy who is supposed to be protecting privacy. And also, if he has cameras covering the reflecting pool, where on earth are all the DC spies supposed to meet to pass documents ?

As always, it depends on the reasons given, in theory anyway.

I'm not anti- surveillance and I believe there was even a point in the late 1990's when a street in the Scottish city where I live in was supposed to have the most cctv cameras outside of London.

Face recognition tech plus AI are the game changers and like everything else can be used for good or bad. And now I'm going to use that useless phrase about putting the genie back in the bottle.

We can't, so we need to manage it by being strong and active in holding the council or gov't to account for the level and extent of surveillance and most importantly, the use. Busy High Street during Christmas shopping period ✅Accident hotspots✅
All places of worship❗ Schools❗ A &E ✅
But I agree that Joe Public is sleep walking into complete surveillance atm.

Regular posters to a thread I'm on might be aware that I have lived in countries with different political governments. In one, my dh was very grateful for the active surveillance of a personal security company (think the commercial version of the military Blackwater) went I went shopping, as bombings of shopping malls and kidnapping of foreign targets for ransom, were rife at the time.

Instead of targetting China, look at the US and ICE. The avg Chinese person knows about their surveillance; the avg American, I doubt it.

edited for grammar

I think the PRC did lead the way with it. I recall they used Uighur terrorism as the excuse at the time. But I do not think they are still in the lead. They are with making the kit, but they make so much of everything.

As you say, different political governments. And that is an aspect that does worry me. Because in a country such as the PRC, it can be said that data protection/ privacy laws are designed to protect the state from the individual. But in the west, the premise has been they are designed to protect the individual from the state. The latter is being eroded I think. Esp by the likes of Trump.

And sure, there is protection from crime. A noble reason. Depending on how crime is being defined. And that definition changes.

On surveillance, there is a new one creeping into the west I think. To protect people from themselves. We see that mainly on the web, but to me it is all the same thing. Cameras and web monitoring. And location too via smartphones. Banning websites.

I think there is another aspect to it too. Innocent till proven guilty. The cornerstone of Justice. Watching people in case they commit a crime, when there is no reasonable suspicion that they will. Hmm, that's one for the legal ethics people.

I see that as being like a couple of polis patrolling Sauchiehall Street. " Hey look over there, is that not Ned the shoplifter ? Let's keep an eye on him". That to me is reasonable suspicion. Compare that to a camera photographing EVERONE and searching a crime database. That to me is not reasonable suspicion.

It's complex for sure.

That to me is not reasonable suspicion.

And here is the crux of the matter. You are starting from a premise of suspicion while I'm starting from one of usefulness, of which deterring crime is one. I'm not saying either is wrong or right, or even that it's binary. If a disproportionate numer of assults on staff take place in A&E, then cctv can help with both deterrence (ok drunk or spaced-out, violent individuals are unlikely to care) and bringing criminals to justice. Similarly with the rise in thefts from supermarkets where police are reluctant to respond even when alerted.

@MsAmerica your thoughts on these issues would be appreciated.

My concerns are centred on AI face recognition training and use of that training. Just watch the reality show where people have to evade capture for x number of days in order to win the prize, and look at many different ways of tracking people. From their use of ATMs, to walking around town/using public transport, links with relatives and friends, finding remote places they went to on holiday as children etc, were an eyeopener.
In the West, we/democracy face a Pandora's Box and can already see exploitation by the corrupt and self serving Trump Administration.
Meanwhile, I'm ok that my phone unlocks with my face, even knowing everything's vulnerable to hacking at some point.

eta
It's about the level of risk we're willing to accept as a society.

And my suspicion is grounded in where I am located.

There is a thought experiment I have done on this. It's an odd one, but just a thought experiment.

Pick a place, lets say 20 miles away. And let's imagine there is someone there you want to murder. Could you plan it, just as a thought experiment, and not be caught? And when one thinks about it, and how hard it would be, that's a positive.

Now do the same, but this time it is not a murder, but to attend a protest. That's a negative.

The positives for solving crime are great. And I think it will get to the point where some crimes will be very difficult to evade being caught. But at what price.

But yeah. We are on the same page, I think. What does @MsAmerica think ?

but to attend a protest

We can sidestep the impossible task of looking at all the instances by concentrating on the social contract between government and people. Demos kratos, Greek for rule by the people is the origins of the word "democracy". Authoritarian gov'ts have a different agenda and operating style and will use surveillance, as mentioned previously, to restrict and control actions by its people against the State.

Still waiting for OP's thoughts on their visceral opposition; why the fear of China in this context; and how Europe is being bullied.

While we wait for @MsAmerica , I think it is worth mentioning another form of state surveillance that has an impact on these sorts of discussions. The Hundred Flowers.

Back in the 50's, Mao launched his "hundred flowers campaign". Let a hundred flowers bloom he said. He invited all the academics and intellectuals to speak up, to say what they think freely. Give us ideas on how to make things better he said. And they did. They said Mao should step aside. So Mao jailed them all.

And it is still not known to this day if Mao was sincerely willing to listen, or if it was a "flush them out" ruse.

So good luck getting engagement on a thread like this from any Chinese nationals.

And I think there is an example of this I heard about from China just last year. Football.

Uncle Xi likes football. And the men's team are terrible. And after yet another atrocious defeat, there was a very rare criticism of the Government in Chinese state media. "We need to fix this, what can we do, how can the Government fix this ?". Silence. Because hundred flowers.

And I think we see it happening with Trump. He has created fear of speaking out in his own ranks. Disagree with him, and you are purged.

On Democracy. Here is an interesting read from 2021. State media. So this is the official line.

China's democracy 'more extensive, genuine and effective' than US democracy: official - Global Times