Greens adopt policy treating Zionism as racism (part 2)

Yes - obviously I’m not expecting an actual response to this from @dwordle
At best there’ll be yet another “Well they shouldn’t have (whatever)” but never something specific that they should have done. There never is.

Which, sadly, indicates that these “Oh if only Israel had not overreacted” posts aren’t genuine. They know very well that what they’re really saying is that Israel should have sucked it up and allowed Hamas to go on attacking. They just don’t want to say that openly.

EXACTLY. Lots of 'Israel should have done better' - don't say what they SHOULDN'T have done, say what perfect flawless action they SHOULD have taken. Because nothing is good enough besides Israel accepting murders and terrorist attacks. I ask these people - how happy would you be if you government didn't attack to defend your country in the wake of the deadliest terrorist attack in your history? Would you think 'fair enough' and wait to be kidnapped from your home, tied up with your children and set on fire?

The same people apparently don't think Palestine should have 'done better' by, I don't know, not committing psychopathic terroristic bloodshed?

Is there a reason you haven’t given me a sign that you are (presumably) responding to my post here? Perhaps you didn’t want a reply? Or maybe because you’re well aware that I haven’t “excused” any horrors at all?

Look. You said this: “I reiterate that had Israel not reacted the way it had there would be a lot more support for Israel than it has right now” - which clearly implies that you think Israel could have responded in a way that would both have stopped Hamas from organising another Oct 7th as they had promised to do, while not causing people outside Israel to criticise them - but I don’t think I’ve seen anyone describe what that alternative and preferable action would have been.

So why don’t you give it a go? What action could Israel have taken against Hamas that would have both freed the hostages and prevented a new attack?

(And then you should stand for the Knesset on that basis - I’m sure lots of Israelis would love to know too 😏)

For these people, apparently Jewish people and Israel have no connection, yet not supporting Gazan terrorism is Islamophobic. None of it makes any sense at all.

The people of Israel just want to be left alone. The Palestinians are the ones electing extremists, showing cartoon characters becoming suicide bomber martyrs, and putting instructions on how to make pipe bombs in primary school workbooks.

There is also point where the recipient is entitled to decide enough is enough too.

The perpetrators of 7/10 despise what they perceive as weakness. They don’t want mediation and compromise, they want a holy jihad and the obliteration of Israel and ultimately, the West.

No one in their right mind wants war and suffering, but I don’t believe you can reason with these fanatics. The only thing that will stop them is to bring them harshly to heel. They aren’t the sort of people you can sit down in a room with and work out an acceptable solution with - they just want it their way.

I can’t help feeling there’s a huge amount of incredible naivety amongst the marchers and supporters of the pro Palestine groups. They see it in very simplistic terms; powerful modern industrialised nation against simple farmers and villagers. They don’t see the organisation, arming and anti democratic manipulation that is being fed to them. Images of dead and injured children make fantastic propaganda, and in no way trivialising the horror, the loss of those innocent lives are a direct consequence of the Oct 7 attack.

Did Hamas not realise or think about the consequences when they launched it? Did they truly think Israel would just roll over and accept it? Or was this a very cynical attempt by the jihadists to intentionally reignite the powder keg, knowing exactly what the results would be and the collateral damage caused, because there WAS peace before. Admittedly, a shaky vulnerable one, but peace nonetheless.

Israel was attacked by 5 countries the day it was created. It is surrounded by people who want its destruction (and who the Green Party now agree with as policy). It is constantly bombarded with rockets to the point where their houses contain a concrete safe room and the country is protected by an Iron Dome. There are regular terrorist attacks.

The Houthi's slogan contains the phrase 'Death to Israel and a curse upon Jews'. Hezbollah are attacking Israel from Lebanon. And they are all paid proxies for Iran.

I mean, you talk about how Israel has created the next generation of terrorists by its actions in Gaza, but Israel today is arguably the creation of the actions of the many people who would see it destroyed. Responsibility for the current situation goes both ways.

To put this into maths - if France decided one day to run across the UK border and kill and kidnap British citizens, it would be the equivalent in population terms of them destroying 10,000 people.

Now think about what sort of response we would expect from our government. If France did this (theoretically without the water between us) - sitting there with thousands of British citizens in tunnels, hundreds of British babies being used as hostages and the promise to keep doing this again and again until the UK ceased to exist and British citizens WORLDWIDE were all dead.

What would you do? What would you expect? What happened in WW2 when a version of this did happen? And why on earth should Israel have to be the bigger person and invite these sorts of attacks on repeat?

It's not like the surrounding Muslim countries have a great history of supporting Jewish rights and freedoms. Mostly we were murdered or kicked out. We certainly aren't invited to vote!

It's a really ridiculous situation that somehow Israel - one of the smallest countries in the world - is always the aggressor when they have been dealing with kidnappings and hijackings and car rammings and buses exploding and attacks from every corner of their borders from a variety of countries and terrorist groups from millions and millions and millions of people who hate Jews and want to destroy all of us.

Maybe one day someone else can make the first move towards developing a peaceful solution. We are very tired.

exactly. It's hilarious that the Greens think a single Palestinian state is going to be a safe place for Jews, Christians, atheists, Gay people, or in any way democratic. If they wanted, they could have set up a democratic state with religious freedom for all in any of the many surrounding Muslim majority countries. Why do they think 'Palestine' will be different ?

Balanced way? 3 years on and that naive approach is still being espoused. What was balanced about the slaughter that would make any reasonable and rational person believe that negotiation or a lesser approach was in the realms of possibility?

I wonder if they would then be allowed to run as a political party? An Islamic party was refused permission to stand as an official party purely coincidentally of course. just before lots of fundamentalist Muslims discovered environmentalism. So I'm assuming the same issues will arise if the Greens become a purely Islamic party. However, I do think there are a lot of the Hard Left Corbynist types who don't care about trans issues who would happily continue in an Islamist party if they had to be there to prop it up. I suspect the shared values of anti Semitism and lack of concern for women would hold them together if it was politically expedient.

It wasn't an attempted genocide, it was a genocide. Hunting down a group of people based on their race, with the intent to destroy that protected group. You don't get more directed and targeted than that.

So you excuse one set of horrors for another and how does that solve anything. How does this actually end, they have punished the civilians of Gaza, largely children, and what next. They have just created the next generation of terrorists. Had they behaved in a more balanced way have you not considered that things actually might change.

I've heard it all before and sadly nothing gets better from revenge.

Oh and @dwordle, the “shootings of civilians” in NI that you refer to are far closer to the sorts of attacks on buses and so on by Palestinians that have been happening in Israel for years.
Terrible, yes, but nothing like Oct 7th which was a whole other level of horror. Indeed I’m fairly sure Oct 7th was a crime against humanity and quite possibly attempted genocide.

LOL I literally am. I grew up in a very nationalist part of NI (one you’d know of from the news at the time)
So go ahead: tell me of the times when the IRA attacked Protestant families in their beds, kidnapped toddlers, raped and murdered teens at a concert etc etc.

Clearly you are not from Northern Ireland. I reiterate that had Israel not reacted the way it had there would be a lot more support for Israel than it has right now.... which kind of proves my point.

Yes seek justice but war in the form of what we have seen has actually endangered Israel as a civilisation rather than make it safer. The shooting of civilians in Northern Ireland did what exactly other than enrage and perpetuate violence.

Take a breath, pause, think and then make a decision.

Christians, atheists and even Muslims have more freedom and legal protections in Israel than Christians, Jews and particularly atheists have in any of the neighbouring Middle Eastern countries though. It’s odd how people claiming to want rights for Muslims in Israel never seem to care about the rights of minorities in any of their neighbouring countries.

Actually even Muslims have more rights in Israel than in some of their Muslim majority neighbours.

As an outsider and by no means an expert on Israeli politics, it does seem to me that Netanyahu is a brake for Israel’s attempts to change change its image in the outside world.
I’m under no illusion that a shocking number of people in Europe and elsewhere will continue to support Israel’s enemies no matter what, but Eisenkot would make it harder for those who claim (and sometimes genuinely want) not to be antisemitic to portray events as a war between two extremes.

And Eisenkot, having lost a son and nephews in the fighting since Oct 7th, cannot be accused of wanting to continue the war for political gain while his own family is safely abroad - again something that Netanyahu did.

I know nothing about how good a politician Eisenkot would be though. That’s the weakness in my thinking😬

Israel handed Gaza over to Palestinian control.

And look where that got them. Why would they want to hand over the whole of the West Bank?

That is tbe point

The neighbours need to stop thinking that doing another 7th October is a good idea then everyone can start the peace process.

If after 7th October even the tide had not gone the way it did with repeated threats to do it again and hostages taking so long to get returned plus many that entered Gaza returned dead then potentially we would be talking differently now politically

Also elections in Israel are not going to make a difference conflict wise only domesticly. All parties are pretty much on the same page about most things regarding conflict at the moment. The only massive change will be handling of settlers violence. Bibi turns a blind eye to often others won't put up with it.

But nothing similar to Oct 7th ever happened in Northern Ireland, much less threatening to commit more such in the future- it’s very hard to see what there is to negotiate when one side literally promises to repeat its massacres of civilians until the other side no longer exists.

Like, what can the side which was the victim of that attack give away in exchange that would satisfy the killers? The right to commit smaller massacres in exchange for advance warning?
Especially when the side who attacked on Oct 7th lost the subsequent war and so should (if they were a genuine army and not a bunch religious madmen) be declaring an unconditional surrender.

Just saw a video of a horrible neighbour in the UK that kept throwing nappies and rubbish into the garden next to her own

Sometimes posts on mumsnet are like us saying to the owner of the garden getting wrecked that they must not do anything about it and they shouldn't complain but 'Be kind'

It would be interesting to know the percentage of new members that joining the last year compared to old members that voted in favour or against

We can assume what happened, educated guess but facts would be good to see