FFS Clacton

Not really. I had said I wasn’t a fan of Reform. You countered by saying I hadn’t said I dislike him.

I don’t think those polices will help Clacton.

I don’t know if I’m mentioned it, but I’m not a fan of Reform (I dislike them).

None of that says anything about whether Farage has been a successful politician. I think je has been for reasons I’ve explained.

If you think he’s been an unsuccessful politician you could explain what that means to you. I’m not sure it’s about councillors resigning (at least, not set against everything else). I also think there’s no contradiction in recognising a successful poltician whose politics one disagrees with.

Bit strange of you to assume that.

How do you think the people of Jaywick will benefit from Reform's policies?

For example

"Nearly half of the working-age population is economically inactive."

How will Reform get them back to work and pay them a decent wage?

I’m enjoying our conversation. I got the sense that you felt I hadn’t professed my anti-Farageness quite enough.

I don’t think it’s a fair reading to say Reform is changing those policies in order to get at Clacton-type voters. It’s always going to be hard to say who Reform “despises” because a party isn’t a single person.

I guess the question is whether Reform looks at Clacton and sees mainly working-class left-behind Brits (not the enemy) or sees layabout benefits scroungers (ok I’d accept they are probably not popular). They certainly don’t look at Clacton and see foreigners.

Well it’s out there in time for the next one which will probably be before the end of the year. Lots of ammunition for all the other parties’ election material with graphic costed illustrations to show Clacton voters how much money a Reform vote could cost them.

I didn't realise our conversation wasn't palatable.

The people I described in my previous post are exactly the people Reform are targeting with their policies. Education, health care, benefits.

They have now announced, after the by-election, they will abolish PIP.
Don't you wonder why they didn't announce that before the by-election?

I dislike Reform and Farage.

I also dislike the idea that to show how much I dislike Farage I should say he’s been bad at politics, or that if I truly disliked Farage I’d join in with rubbishing the man who voted differently.

I’m a Remainer who voted Labour (on local issues) at the last election, if that makes our chat more palatable to you.

edited to add:
I’m also not sure that Reformers “despise” people like Clacton residents. A lot of Reformers are of similar demographic and views, after all. It feels a bit too easy. Like saying that Reeves “despises the rich” when she puts up taxes. A bit too neat and not actually helpful for understanding things.

I’m not sure if that’s a reference to me, but if so, I don’t think voting for Reform for that reason is a good thing. I’m not a Reform supporter and in an ideal world everyone would contemplate their vote carefully.

I do think it’s a legitimate thing though, and I think that’s a democratic principle more important than my own (or your) policy preferences.

I also think it’s an understandable thing, especially in an election where no other serious party stood a candidate.

I would also guess that the man who said he knew Farage wouldn’t do anything for the constituency was of the view that none of the candidates would do. I doubt he believed there was a lovely MN-approved candidate who would make his life and the constituency miles better but he was turning that down for the bantz.

I didn't say Clacton is a dump.

I understand why they are easily influenced by Reform's rhetoric.

Sadly they are the people despised by Reform. But as they are mostly white British, they probably think it doesn't apply to them.

Not a fan doesn't exactly say you dislike Reform/Farage, neither do your posts..

That is a different question. I’m not a Reform supporter and I think a Reform govt would probably be a disaster.

The question we were debating is whether Farage’s politics keep winning. Not whether his policies are good or his counsellors are capable.

I think any fair assessment of UK politics in the past two decades has to highlight Farage as one of the most persistent political winners.

In that time he’s delivered the biggest constitutional change in decades, reshaped the Tories significantly and Labour to an extent, returned to lead his party again and again defeating all rivals, and is now neck and neck in the national polls despite having almost no MPs and zero record in government.

As is obligatory to declare on MN, I’m no fan of Farage or Reform.

But you are describing a town for which all earlier status quos have failed. It’s not illogical, as a voter in those places, to vote for more radical options.

(“Clacton is a dump, don’t they understand they should vote for more of the same?”)

Clacton constituency contains Jaywick, the most deprived area in England.

The number of people in Clacton leaving school with no formal qualifications is reckoned to be the second highest of any town in England.

Least ethnically diverse with 96% classified as white

Parts of the district has one of the lowest life expectancies and highest under-75 mortality rates nationwide.

Nearly half of the working-age population is economically inactive.

How will 'stop the boats' do anything for those people?

I can’t believe some people think electing someone like Farage just to annoy lefties is a good thing. Ok, Farage might not be a full-on fascist or turn us into 1930s Germany, but he could certainly be a dangerous step in that direction.

You start with populism and attacks on the establishment, then undermine institutions, the media, the judiciary and political opponents. Democracy doesn’t usually disappear in one giant leap; it can be eroded one step at a time.

Farage or Reform winning a general election would be a massive jump. It would normalise a much harder-right style of politics and potentially move the Overton window significantly further in that direction. We could end up much closer to someone like Rupert Lowe being capable of winning an election in the 2040s and he’s the sort of politician I could imagine pushing a very Tommy Robinson-style idea of “justice”. That’s the direction I’d be worried about.

It does. Two out of every 11 working-age people (18 per cent) on Clacton are in receipt of PIP. Reform waited until after the Clacton by-election to announce it will abolish PIP. Perhaps they were worried that even their loyal supporters might be miffed by that plan.

"A new system, called a Health Security Allowance, would replace both Pip and the Universal Credit health element but only the most "severe, enduring and high-risk cases" would receive cash support".

It shows that Reform will put up any candidate without proper vetting.

And people will vote for them without realising their views. Or caring about their views. Maybe you are one of them.

Also have a look at the councils they are leading to see how well they are doing with Reform's policies. Kent being the prime example.

It’s interesting to me that ‘the good people of Clacton’, an economically deprived area with a high percentage of people on benefits, have voted for a man who is advocating cutting said benefits drastically. I am baffled that that hasn’t affected their blind adoration of Farage. It defies logic really.

My quoting you triggered you?🤯

Ok hun.😬

Ok. What triggered me was you quoting a block of text that makes the very point I’d explained, and claiming it showed you in the right.

And my first instinct was to write out a reply explaining why you had misunderstood.

And then I realised that this is exactly the response you are after.

Afterwards I did reflect on whether I’d been too harsh, that maybe your comprehension really is at a child’s level.

But at that point I decided that either way, you aren’t interested in having a proper discussion.

Wanna talk about it instead of repeatedly telling me to "fuck off" MNet? Because you that's not going to happen. Right?
🤷‍♀️🙈

Ah come on now. Do you not know how discussion forums work?
Why so tetchy?

Have I triggered you in some way?❤️‍🩹

You can’t exactly blame the guy if he saw an Oxbridge comedian with a bin on his head being offered to him and decided not to play

He’s perfectly entitled to vote for that reason and to think he’s only returning in kind the type of attitude being shown to him by those who sent him a bin to vote for

That's^^ what you said @GeneralPeter. Not anyone else. Not the man in Clacton who voted Farage in order to annoy others. Not anyone else on this thread. Just you.

Are you saying he doesnt watch the new or is too lazy to google the candidates? Or that he is caught up in some sort of conspiracy theory and that's why he voted Farage?🤯

How do you know this stuff?

Oh fuck off. You are being really disingenuous now.

You know very well that I was describing why he might feel that way.

And if you really think that it was me in my voice: well, I’ve answered that question. You asked it once. I answered it.

Now “I ask you again”. Really? Just go back to the answer I wrote to you and read it.

Disagree if you like. With him, with me.

But this silly pretending you don’t understand the conversation we are having. The continual insistance on characterising this man in a bad light while pretending you admire him.

Who is it for exactly?

No, but you did imply he was stupid or a conspiracy theorist for thinking Binface has been “sent”. Or what are all these silly laughing emojis in your posts?

Huh? You were the person who said Count Binface had been sent @GeneralPeter.😬

I do admire that chap's honesty. He said outright that he cast his Reform vote to piss people off. Not for the betterment of his community or the UK. He's not lying about the reason he voted as he did.🤷‍♀️

He didn't say Count Binface was "sent". That was you @GeneralPeter. So I ask again, who do you think "sent" / "offered" Count Binface to NF?🤔👽😱

Thanks. I don’t really see that as counterevidence that Farage’s politics keep winning. Mainly becuase I think his politics are mostly national and not really dependent on local councillors. If anything the list shows that Farage can put up terrible candidate and still win.