Rupert Lowe bemoans the handgun ban due to 'one murder' in Dunblane

Yes, that is a fair point. John Major certainly had to battle many within his party.

I think there is a bit of a myth that old fashioned Tories were moderate , gentle, country squire types. For all your Ken Clarkes , you had your Redwoods and Wintertons. Exactly the types who now find their homes in Reform who, after all, are mainly ex Tories who found the Tories too moderate, it seems. And then your Lowes who was formerly a hard right Tory with plenty of happy bedfellows.

Unfortunately they did, they were awful. Can you remember the mad cow disease outbreak. The comments from the Tories were shocking.

They want a return to the old order where class rules and they rule the proles.

And here is an article about 'old school Tory' backbenchers

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/gunban-rebels-spurn-howard-s-extra-cash-offer-1352062.html

My memory of Howard is possibly a bit out. But I know he argued about the extent of the ban and was seen to worry most about gun owners and enthusiasts. There was a gun lobby - just not as powerful as the NRA.

Here is one (sounding remarkably similar to a PP must say...). This was in 2004.

Mr Mercer made the comments at a fringe meeting at the Tories' spring conference at the weekend. He was quoted as saying that banning handguns because people got shot was like banning cars because people were killed in road accidents.
The Daily Record yesterday quoted Mr Mercer as telling the meeting that the handgun ban had been a "kneejerk reaction".
"It's exactly the same argument that I would deploy about joyriding. It is clearly highly undesirable that people get killed on the roads by motor cars. But we don't ban motor cars. People need to learn how to drive a motor car safely and have respect for it."
The paper then quoted Mr Mercer as saying: "It is so much more sensible to train children to handle and have a respect for weapons than to simply ban them. It is so shortsighted."

Obviously I don't mean all of them errol but plenty did - I was reacitng to nobles suggestion that Tories didn't react like Lowe at the time : I think that is where the generalising lies. Major really had to battle to get some of his party in line -and actually he himself needed some persuasion. I seem to remember it was only when he visited that he was really hit by the situation . Reform didn't exist then but we all know there was a wing way back in Thatcher's time of the party that was very reactionary, very pro hunting and guns and so on. Lowe would have been one of them. You only need to look at the parliamentary vote to see plenty , mainly form the Tory benches, opposed the ban and the first rection to the Cullen Report was very weak.

I remeber it extremely well. There were a lot of very insensitive things said akin to what Lowe said at the time. Michael Howard for example was pretty vociferous.

I am not being anti Tory. I was the first to mention Michael Forsyth upthread. But there has always been a hard wing. That's how we got to Brexit.

Maybe my understanding of 'old school Tory' was faulty.

There is a bit of romanticising of the political reaction to Dunblane here.

Did ‘they’, en bloc? All of ‘them’?

They did at the time.

The old school Tories wouldn’t have welcomed the far right. Lowe and Musk are not Tories.
Neo-fascist leaders back Rupert Lowe’s Restore Britain and not Reform

https://www.thetimes.com/article/6fdbc7d1-19c8-4ffa-8985-0dd49f654a54?shareToken=ebeae751000c4f6dea6560ee819b6e0e

The guy is just a typical old fashioned Tory, as if we don't have enough problems. An MP so insensitive that he uses Dunblane as a pawn.

British people don't want guns and we certainly don't want hand guns.

You can't 'feel' the murder rate has gone up. That's nonsense. It's down. That is a fact. I don't need to be polite about your feelings when they are based on no substance at all. Perhaps if you could accept the facts, we could talk.

You seem unable to work out what the word "feel" means. It isn't actually acceptable to make up things people are going to say before they say it. Please don't do that that to me again. By all means comment on any statements I actually make, politely if you can manage that.

I am merely pre-empting more nonsense from you. You are clearly unable to access and understand information, since you were unaware that the murder rate has been falling and is now the lowest since 1977. Which rather undermines your point about lethal weapons.

WTF do you think I would write that? Please don't make stuff up when you post.

Yep, they always come out with this argument. Nobody seems to want data these days.

And @Imdunfer I hope you aren't going to trot out the old 'oh but there are lots of murders, people just aren't reporting them' that folk like to use about crime stats. Because it's bilge.

And, talking of murder rates, they have dropped too. Last year they were at their lowest since 1977.

It's not 'pistols'. It's handguns. Interesting you should use the word pistol like Lowe.

It wasnt a 'kneejerk' reaction. There were enquiries and reports and two law changes before the outright ban was achieved.

We have the lowest death by guns in Europe and, pretty much, the world. This is, objectively, a good thing.

That's good to know but plenty of other lethal weapons are available and it certainly doesn't feel as if the banning of pistols has reduced murders in this country, just the weapons of choice have changed.

It’s one of those rare days seared on many people’s memory isn’t it? The photos of those lovely little children and their brave teacher.

Illegal guns are NOT available everywhere. They are extremely hard to get hold of without deep organised crime contacts. Usually they are rented out for extortionate fees, and ammunition costs a fortune and is only available in very small amounts. Most of these handguns are pretty much museum pieces, often dating back to the Yugoslav wars and some back to WWII. Many of them are modified blank firers.

The fact that handguns are so hard to obtain, and so rarely used in crimes in the UK, shows that the existing licensing scheme is effective.

I remember that day vividly. My own son was almost exactly the same age. He's 35 now.

We know two couples who lost children in that tragedy.

I can't find the words. The man is unspeakable.

The first reaction under that government was The Cullen Report . They declined to ban handguns. It really took quite a long campaign by the Snowdrop campaigners and by the work of Forsyth, Robertson and others to press for the total ban.

He's an arse.

A relative of mine shot competitively and her weapon was one of those that was banned completely. She didn't whinge - she switched to another type of pistol and complied with all the regulations.

Children's lives are more important than shooting for fun.

Oh yes Michael Forsyth and George Robertson? I remember they came together, i guess there will have been tories who would have objected and I do remember gun clubs didn't want change, i think it meant the majority of voices backed the changes.

Yeah his snooty dismissive attitude speaks volumes