Does anyone really think The Lord’s Prayer and The National Anthem…

Here's Bristol Council sowing hate and division with the islamic call to prayer.

NB being Christian didn't prevent everyone from doing science.

But living one's Christianity wasn't a prerequisite for it either.

Oh, that's got me onto Galileo, Darwin, and the persecution of scientists down the ages whose work was seen to conflict with the Bible – or merely with various Christian power elites' convenient beliefs... Arghh, I'll stop now.

They're rooted in lots of other cultures as well – a reality it takes enormous contortions to ignore.

Polytheistic classical Greek and Roman cultures are the bedrock of British high-status culture. The languages are still taught in schools, texts from that time are used to shape the values of Britain's ruling class ( Boris Johnson trotting out classical tags to show-off), classical architecture has been imitated in the UK for centuries for our major buildings, and classical art is preserved in our museums.

We get much of the English language from Latin and Greek, particularly in the sciences and even our word for democracy. (The US goes one further and refers to its upper chamber as the Senate, populated by the Democrat and Republican parties, respectively Greek and Latin)

Roman Law forms the basis of most legal systems in Europe and in the English-speaking world. Slightly less so in England, but very strongly in Scotland (the British home of that Enlightenment mentioned by PP).

Jury trials in the UK are the legacy of Viking law.

The Romans didn't bring hypocausts to the British Isles because of Christianity. The first Roman Emperor to become Christian, Constantine I, didn't convert till about 312 AD.

And the knowledge of classical mathematics and science, on which the C18th enlightenment was built, was transmitted to northern Europe in the C12th, C13th & C14th by the Islamic scholars of the Mediterranean who had preserved it, assimilated it and added plenty of their own knowledge. Which is why many of our mathematical words like algebra and algorithm are Arabic. Oh yeah, and those Arabic numerals and that zero from India...

Maybe that's why Farage's Brexiteer pals had "had enough of experts"? Perhaps they felt those wretched scientist-y people who could do maths were practising a foreign culture?

And liberalism, the scientific enlightenment, the rights of man (now known as human rights) are all rooted in Christianity as well. Which is why fake Christians are so easy to spot. They think they can use Christianity as a cudgel to harm others, but actually to be Christian is to allow the teachings of Jesus to flow through you and lift others up.

What is this desperate pushing of the Christian agenda these days? I bet it isn’t coming from actual practising Christians!

Nope.

No … keep religion out of secular spaces in my opinion.

Yes that includes schools (unless in a faith school).

The thing is though everybody did it since the beginning of time and we were the ones to stop it. Thats a good thing atleast. Let's not act like us brits were the only ones who did it. Africans, Asians, Americans all did it

Stopping doing something after you've made billions from industrialising the suffering of other humans (and handsomely compensating those who have profited out of it) isn't that much of a flex, really. It's like Germany saying 'but we're not sending Jews to concentration camps anymore and Israel's done well financially out of it from the scattered remains of the people, haven't we done well in bringing them along so far?'.

This is true in some ways, we definitely did take resources but you've got to look at how far we brought some nations. Zimbabwe was filled with mud huts when we arrived and when we left it was the bread basket of Africa, and was comparable to most European nations. Same with Australia. I think we did lots of bad but I also think we did lots of good things, like ending slavery.

The country was 'built' by ruthless exploitation of the poor and the powerless both at home and abroad, the extraction of natural resources from all over the globe sent back to Britain for manufacture and resale for a massive profit.

Its history featured protracted wars and persecution based on sectarian divisions, oppression of Catholics and Jews and Non Conformists, theft of land and property and destruction of Christian church property, and long campaigns by abolitionists, socialists, and suffragettes to make the powerful acknowledge the humanity of the powerless and oppressed.

The fact that it's presumably the CoE version of the Lord's Prayer for starters.

Plus the fact that plenty of non Christians have perfectly sound and even spiritually grounded values that align completely with civic virtues.

Yes, this is what the entire meeting will end up being about so they don't have to actually spend time on the real jobs in case they mess them up. "But Colin says Hallowed Be Thy Name & Barry is right with his Lead Us Not Into Temptation!"
"I think we should change it to Deliver Us From The Brown People"!

It is Reform trying to follow Trump by appealing to the Evangelicals I think. Farage is probably getting bungs from them via his cletpto to promote the word of God...

Yes, the country is built on Christianity. All the basic values you use everyday even if your not a Christian are Christian values. You dont have to join in if you dont want to. National anthem yes, people should try to be more patriotic.

Great in a Church but most of them do not attend so probably their big chance!

National anthem perhaps pretend its the 70's switch of the tv at nights and stand to attention!

Flags should be waved in celebration not stuck on a lamp post like a dog marking its territory

The dirge is about wishing one man well and to be treated nicely by his preferred religious entity, not anything actually about the country.

And when you get to the prayer, chances are that with more than 2 people in the room, whichever version is said is wrong for the other(s).

What values would those be? It’s performative.

It might be useful to read the parable of the widow’s mite.

Why not.

Voting is useful. However, in shared civic spaces such as councils, I think there should be broad agreement and neutrality around the promotion of any particular religious or ideological practice. Equally, it should not be possible for democratic processes to override fundamental principles such as equality under the law. In a liberal society, freedom of belief matters, but so do shared civic standards and equal treatment within public institutions and spaces.

I would have more respect for the people voting this in (though would still disagree) if they were all committed members of a church community.

I think the National Anthem is a bit different because it is more about national identity than religion. That said, King Charles is head of the Church of England, so the two have always been linked in Britain.

The Lord’s Prayer feels less fitting in council meetings today because not everyone shares the same faith. Personally, I would rather either no prayer at all or some genuinely inclusive approach, rather than assuming one set of beliefs represents everyone.

But I do sometimes wonder if removing shared traditions completely just creates a different kind of problem. People often talk about “neutral” public spaces, but in reality every group brings its own values, beliefs and expectations into them.

Society then ends up trying to work out whose values take priority when they clash. Liberal societies/groups are often expected to do most of the accommodating, which can sometimes leave people feeling there are no longer any shared norms holding things together.

They aren't changed to ALL halal/ kosher / whatever. They include a variety of meals, so everyone has some options no matter their dietary requirements.

I would expect them to also accommodate vegetarians, vegans, and people with common allergies/ food intolerances.