This post nails it about left wing voters on Mumsnet over the last two days

I think the Tories were okay with mass immigration because it helped undermine the working classes and made for cheap labour.

That's all very well, but it meant competition for housing among one end of society, resentment that could be fostered - but if you want to go back to how it was before, it's tricky because the current economy is based around all that now, not to mention the gig economy where someone can get to work cheap and off the books.

It's like the Right (inc to some extent Blair's New Labour) created this situation, and now the Extreme Right seek to benefit. I'm not sure the actual Left would have allowed this at all, but then a) They've been sidelined for decades and b) Ugh - socialism!

It's a potentially sexist analogy, but Reform are like the woman who lifts up her skirt to show a bit of leg for your hubby. It's not so much that she fancies your hubby - she fancies your house. And knows what buttons to push to get it.

They'll say the things that they think people want to hear, to get elected. And they'll make the single, only issue. 'You want sex? Here comes sex...'

I must admit, I don't come across working class people in my daily life all that much so I can't pretend to know how they feel on anything really. But what I will say is, time and time again I found myself incredibly disappointed with the results of elections/referendum when I find out the reason things have gone the way they have is because of some working class non issue that has whipped them all up into a frenzy.

It happened with Brexit and it's happening again. I try not to feel this way but it really does make me incredibly resentful I have to say.

@RottenApplesSpoilTheLot whilst I get that, I will personally take a free NHS over any amount of flags-I think Reform needs to be very upfront about this- in Germany state health insurance is 380 euros a month each - and pensioners pay in full too. Employers pay 50% ( that should kill off a few smaller companies who like to blame Rachel Reeves employers NI extra 2%) but the public at minimum are still personally paying 190 euros each and tough shit on paying in full if you don’t have an employer.

I suspect he’s going to fudge it and say details not decided yet -right till after an election.

I suspect most ordinary people just think - of that will be an extra £70 or so and NI will go down- I doubt it very much . That’s not the figures I’m seeing in Europe where they have ‘paid in/insurance based and they have higher tax than uk too - you cannot have it all ways.

I doubt very much Farage has found a magic formula that won’t mean the public are hugely out of pocket or employers are, and probably both

You could argue that Labour in the 60s did a bit of welcome social engineering in eliminating class deference.

I take all that back-I am so wrong! Google tells me his uncle was a peer and his father was in the city. So upper middle class or lower upper. He was also a Captain in the proper Army in WW1-which is presumably why Mainwaring was so insecure!

No idea. But I thought teacher was middle class then ? But maybe not in the comprehensives ?

Wasn’t Wilson a teacher? So not any sort of upper class-solidly middle class. Just with an unexpectedly posh accent.

Wasn’t Wilson a teacher? So not any sort of upper class-solidly middle class. Just with an unexpectedly posh accent.

I recall it was a Thatcher thing. To change the working class masses into self identifying as being middle class. By selling the council houses and state owned utilities/ companies.

People identifying as middle class are more likely to vote Tory after all. It was really social engineering.

I think you can see it in some pre Thatcher TV output. Dads Army for example. Hodges the Greengrocer and Jones the Butcher were working class. Manwaring was middle. Wilson was lower upper. Thatcher changed that. Now near all the Characters would be middle. Walker would be a middle class entrepreneur.

It does appear to be the norm rather than the exception that far right folk seem to have an admiration for the authoritarian CPC and their methods.

There are some left wing shills too ( George Galloway for example), but most are firmly right wing. Trump fans and Brexit/Reform types. I am not saying you are a shill of course.

I suspect that is the Overton horseshoe in action. The same is seen re Putin. Authoritarians just like other authoritarians, no matter their ideology.

Rubio does sort of stand out as different though. Right wing, but firmly anti-communist.

Lots of working class people in the South were Tories or at least floating voters. My family were. Not everyone working class supports Labour, many people are socially conservative or aspirational towards things Labour disapproves of. Who do you think traditionally read the Sun?

I recall it was a Thatcher thing. To change the working class masses into self identifying as being middle class. By selling the council houses and state owned utilities/ companies.

People identifying as middle class are more likely to vote Tory after all. It was really social engineering.

I think you can see it in some pre Thatcher TV output. Dads Army for example. Hodges the Greengrocer and Jones the Butcher were working class. Manwaring was middle. Wilson was lower upper. Thatcher changed that. Now near all the Characters would be middle. Walker would be a middle class entrepreneur.

What Red said.

The Reform supporters I know best are working class and don't claim benefits. One is an NHS care worker and she gets pissed off working every hour she can whilst other working class people do fuck all. There's one woman in our circle of friends who is causing a significant amount of conflict because she is grifting and taking the piss with benefits. It's the more working class women in the group who are most pissed off by it rather than the ones paying most tax.

I don't think people realise there is a split between working class blue collar workers who have a history of Methodist type work ethics and pride in work and the concept of idle hands being the devil's work and a Benefits Class. Historically there has always been this mentality which worked well for the Tories and Labour when there were job opportunities and you could work your way out of poverty.

This group now feels lumped in and dismissed as stupid by a middle class who only see education as a way out of poverty. This is a relatively new thing - the bringing in of university as the only way to work up protected the middle classes who had the means to support children this way whilst practical access routes were closed down and it was no longer possible to train on the job and through proving yourself through hard work alone.

Too many people don't recognise this coincided with a point with the EU where people from abroad who had opportunities to train and therefore had experience took up jobs in these areas meaning that working class people who otherwise would have worked their way up were further restricted in opportunities. Hence Brexit. This gap wasn't recognised by middle classes because it didn't affect them.

I don't think Reform leaders are interested in this particularly. They want tax opportunities and see disaffection as merely a way to gain power. But if you are working class you have nothing to lose if you want opportunities that aren't there - you already think you have been failed by the middle class led Tories and Labour - because they have been as their political blind spots have been constantly where hard working working class individuals are situated.

And this continues to be the case. The most hated policies are those that cover these bases and are where the Tories and Labour have this blind spot of hard worker lower class individuals. They think it's all about money not things like a sense of community, pride in support themselves without government inference and feeling part of society rather than just a support act to the middle classes.

It's the writing off and silencing that a major part of the problem. If you aren't academic and you aren't articulate from education you are 'outside'.

This is going to cause a certain problem in coming years as it's middle class jobs on the line with white collar jobs most at risk from AI and this is going to cause all manner of issues. When the head of BlackRock is saying you should train your kids to be plumbers not lawyers that says a lot. The Middle Classes who aren't paying attention to this coming shift are in for a rude awakening as the balance of power will firmly shift further with this change....

I should add I'm absolutely not a Reform voter. I dislike what they are about and what their ambitions are but I totally get why people are looking to them for and why. That's not stupid. Stupid would be to continue to vote for political parties who have demonstrated for years that they don't represent your interests - you don't make the same mistake repeatedly if you habe anything about you.

The point for me has always been about these traditional parties who continue to pay lip service and miss the point to the interests of a huge number of people and then are bewildered when they choose to no longer vote along historical lines. Why should they? These parties need to work harder to listen and represent the interests of everyone rather than serving to protect only their own interests and pet projects.

The tone deafness is the thing that's killing Labour and the Conservatives. They need to engage with difficult topics and conversations which don't adhere to a closed minded perfect version of the world which has been PR washed and sanitised for the Middle Classes to never hear nor experience the difficult stuff.

I have to say the trolling by Reform about locating immigration centres in Green voting areas was the ultimate wind up on this score. The reaction is hilarious. I am happy to watch that one with popcorn.

Labour and the Tories need to ask themselves where they've gone wrong. It's not that difficult to work out.