This post nails it about left wing voters on Mumsnet over the last two days

So - left leaning governments and people are in favour of giving people handouts rather than trying to help them into work? It is the exact opposite

Pat McFadden: Every meeting I have is 'who can we tax in order to pay benefits to others'.

So - left leaning governments and people are in favour of giving people handouts rather than trying to help them into work? It is the exact opposite.

What the left say is that people should have opportunities, but for those in genuine need the safety net should be easily accessed and stigma free.

I worked with people with disabilities and many many people fail to apply for benefits they qualify for, either through pride or ignorance of their entitlement.

The left used to be good. I used to be one of them! But now with trans, open borders, critical race theory, net zero etc, they've really lost the plot. In fairness, there are some on the left who recognise this and what to do something about it, especially when they see trade union members supporting Reform.

So you seem to have a single issue that is the driving factor.
You are the one who asked for "just one" issue!

Why are you so pro-trans? You said, "I am on the pro science/anti religion side".
So what is so "complex" and needs "time and a lot of working out"?

You have ignored the "cultural" question.
It seems to be a common trick of yours, to ignore bits of an argument that you don't like. It's like trying to debate with a TRA.

You quoted a bit of my post, so I take it you want me to reply ? You did not tag me.

So you seem to have a single issue that is the driving factor. Trans rights V GC rights ?

I did link the UN declaration of Human rights in my post, because the poster I was replying to mentioned it. I think it is article 29 that applies:

"Article 29

1. Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.

2. In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.

3. These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations."

The bit I bolded. Basically saying that rights can only be limited by law, if those rights impact others rights.

Do you not agree that this can be a complex rule to apply? It takes time and a lot of working out. And here you are posting about it on a political thread. Posting your opinion. Is that not you playing a part in the "working it out"

And if that is your single voting issue, then vote for the party that you agree with on it.

Here is the Reform website. I can't find what they say about Trans, but I am sure there is an up to date policy, What I found on other sites is that they align with you.

Policies | Reform UK (reformparty.uk)

If they match your single issue, then vote for them.

Re shutting conversation down. I posted a link to a UK political party that are campaigning on right to far right policy. I would not call that "shutting down".

The compensation argument is bewildering - that was the political price of abolishing slavery. The fact that the UK was prepared to spend so much to abolish something shows how opposed to it it was.

Many members of the House of Commons and the House of Lords directly owned plantations in the Caribbean or had deep financial ties to the slave trade.

it was not that the British government were opposed to slave trade, they were concerned more about economic collapse

The British economy was deeply entangled with colonial plantations, which supplied vital commodities like sugar, coffee, and cotton.
Government officials genuinely feared that if they stripped plantation owners of their workforce overnight without a financial cushion, it would cause a domino effect of bankruptcies. They worried this would collapse major British banks, ruin shipping merchants in cities like Bristol and Liverpool, and spark violent rebellions or white settler revolts in the colonies. The compensation was designed to act as a massive economic bailout to keep the empire's financial system stable.

do you mean the left who campaigned for weekends, maternity benefit, paternity benefit, paid annual leave, better working conditions, national minimum wage, sick pay

all those workers benefits?

or do you mean another left?

“ The new Reform UK mayor of Redditch is facing an investigation into her social media - after a series of historic posts emerged showing her criticising black, Asian and LGBT communities.

Councillor Sue Eacock has come under fire for remarks on X, including one where she suggested there were too many black performers at the Queen's Platinum Jubilee concert.
She also tweeted the comedian Lenny Henry to say she did not want to attend a gig, writing "no thanks, I identify as a white woman", and responded to a video of purely Asian people in a street by stating it was "heartbreaking to see our once beautiful capital, London, falling."

From the BBC this morning. This is the calibre of the Reform politicians who are hoping to represent us.

Reform isn’t about the working class, poor or otherwise. It’s about making its key people and their cronies rich. Oh, and don’t expect them to turn up to do any actual work for us, either in their constituency or in parliament.

Can you give examples of this not being allowed ?
If I can pick just one. "scientific progress: science over beliefs
freedom from obscurantism and dogma: be free to call out anything that is not science-based and/or that goes against personal emancipation etc.
dogma: any opinion that people are not allowed to question"

Easy. The trans debate. We have had over a decade of trying to explain that science (biology) is more important than belief (gender ideology). Sex (chromosomes, gametes and all sorts of science-y stuff) versus gender (which is never defined so you can't pin it down. Obscurantism and dogma writ large).
We finally had a legal ruling over a year ago that confirmed that woman means woman and man needs man. Try and get your head round that - that that needs to be explained and laying down in law! And, on top of that, it has taken the Government over a year to issue Guidelines to help people implement this really difficult concept [sarcasm alert] that woman=woman and man=man.

The concept of gender was recognised in the UK, via the Gender Recognition Act, by the Lefty Liberals.

Attempts were made to attack people who tried to uphold science: they were demonised, some were de-platformed and/or lost their livelihoods, others self-censored for fear of the same, they were threatened (death, rape, etc), they were harassed by the Police at the behest of the genderists (the very Orwellian Non Crime Hate Incidents), etc, etc

How did you manage to miss all that?

So that's one answer to your "what cultural thing can't people do any more?" Civilised debate is shut down. People have lost freedom of speech: they self-censor for fear of repercussions. They can't rely on the Police to be impartial on upholding law & order. They can't rely on the NHS to do their one job (understand human biology). That's all pretty disastrous, culturally speaking.

Quote : "So, you’re ignorant or dim, and you prefer to hide it rather than engage and learn, yet we should pay a lot of credit to your opinions from the big man in China because …?"

You appear to be in ad hominem territory here.

In the OPs opening statement on this thread, the OP wrote : " "How stupid are Reform voters? Don't they realise they'll get fewer benefits?!"". And it goes on to talk about how the left put down the working class etc. The usual "them and us' stuff, about how the left are the educated elite now attacking the working class.

Well, I am on the left, have always voted left any time I have been able to vote, and I am working class.

When you say I am ignorant or dim, then you go on to talk about "the Enlightenment, the French Revolution and the Human’s Right Declaration", well yes. I am ignorant of the first 2. I never studied them. I was doing working class stuff rather than study those. I know a bit about the Human Rights Declaration though. Here is a link that I use when I reference it. It's actually a censored subject where I am. I see nothing in here that the UK have withdrawn from.

eng.pdf (ohchr.org)

Here is the question I asked: " What British Culture things can't people do anymore ?"

I have not seen an answer to that yet. Instead, I am getting a pile on and ad hominem attacks. And now stuff about the age of enlightenment, the French Revolution and the UN Human rights declaration.

This bit here you posted :

"personal emancipation: you re a citizen free to live as you want, you are not limited or be forced to stay within the group, clan, caste, religion, community, etc, you are born into.

equality between sexes: nc

scientific progress: science over beliefs

freedom from obscurantism and dogma: be free to call out anything that is not science-based and/or that goes against personal emancipation etc.
dogma: any opinion that people are not allowed to question""

Can you give examples of this not being allowed ?

If I can pick just one. "scientific progress: science over beliefs". Is that banned in the UK now ? We can throw in dogma too. Especially religious dogma to narrow it down a bit. I regularly take part in debates/discussions on these things. I am on the pro science/anti religion side. And I have never been prevented from being pro science here, or anywhere else.

Just so we can be clear, and do some definitions sort of stuff. Are you coming at this from the position of, for example, a climate change denier? Where you think the UK government and various institutions are pushing a "fake dogma" that the earth is undergoing climate change.

Anyway. This is what I asked. " What British Culture things can't people do anymore ?"

I don't see how the French Revolution answers that.

A cartoon of Muhammed. Not a photo!

Is it?

There are a lot of Reform defenders posting

I wholeheartedly agree with you, but surely you realise by now that Mumsnet is largely a left-wing echo chamber and you won't find many agreeing with you - either because they don't, or because they daren't.

This is the story

Poor bloke

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-68659435

What sort of picture of Muhammed given he was around in the 7th Century?

Anyone who thinks our freedoms are not under threat should have a chat to the Religious Studies teacher from Batley who showed his pupils a picture of Muhammad during a lesson about blasphemy and free speech.

Although unfortunately it's not possible to speak to him as he's still in hiding 5 years later and unlikely ever to return home. Also had death threats and is suffering from PTSD.

The report into the case is chilling and as our demographics change, it's likely we'll have more of this.

So, you’re ignorant or dim, and you prefer to hide it rather than engage and learn, yet we should pay a lot of credit to your opinions from the big man in China because …?

God of the Atheists, grant me some day the self-confidence of a mediocre man 😂

All these notions come from the Enlightenment, the French Revolution and the Human’s Right Declaration, which is a bit of a milestone in the history of the relationship between citizen, state and religion.

personal emancipation: you re a citizen free to live as you want, you are not limited or be forced to stay within the group, clan, caste, religion, community, etc, you are born into.

equality between sexes: nc

scientific progress: science over beliefs

freedom from obscurantism and dogma: be free to call out anything that is not science-based and/or that goes against personal emancipation etc.

dogma: any opinion that people are not allowed to question

hth, but it won’t.

Do you mean this post that you tagged me in ?

"inkognitha · Yesterday 01:49
People cannot believe anymore that their society’s aim is to achieve personal emancipation, equality between sexes, scientific progress, or freedom from obscurantism and dogma."

I honestly don't understand that. As a reply to what has been lost I mean. It's a bit too high brow for me I think. Honestly.

You say "People cannot believe anymore...". What people do you mean?

Then you say " their society’s ", I am not sure what you are referring to. Should you not define what society is in this context?

Then when you say "achieve personal emancipation", is that not a contradiction to it being the aim of a (non defined) society ?

Those 3 things could mean near anything politically depending on how you define society, or what society you mean.

"equality between sexes". As an ongoing process, has that stopped or been reversed?

"scientific progress". Has that stopped or been reversed?

"freedom from obscurantism". I had to look that up. Who is against the spreading of knowledge ? Apart from Trump.

(Freedom from)" dogma". What dogma do people not believe they have freedom from ?

I did not reply because I genuinely did not know what you mean. It's very abstract.

@RedTagAlan

Btw, I replied to you yesterday about what we had lost, you had insisted so much on getting an answer, and since you have had one, radio silence on the topic.

Why is this bashing anyone, from your perspective as a man o/s.

Erm. Quote:

"5MinuteArgument · Today 21:33
Yes, agreed, and to go back to the original point of this thread, liberal leftists who pander to Islam are doing nobody any favours (including the more moderate elements in the Muslim community).
I get that none of us wants to lose our livelihoods or to be killed, but it's important to recognise that there is a problem."

Nobody on this thread is bashing Muslims.

Except of course the OP makes no mention of what you say in their opening post.

Yes, agreed, and to go back to the original point of this thread, liberal leftists who pander to Islam are doing nobody any favours (including the more moderate elements in the Muslim community).

I get that none of us wants to lose our livelihoods or to be killed, but it's important to recognise that there is a problem.