Labour - is there any hope left?

@Attenboroughsmistress

There are so many stupid things about the UK tax and benefits system - it would be amazing if they ran on a “simplification” pledge and just ironed out the whole lot - stupid taxes like stamp duty, the 100k cliff edge, the “mansion tax” which is literally a tax on a standard 3 bedroom terraced house in some parts of London… they need to look at everything as a whole and just fix it all. Make things simple and iron out perverse incentives.

The "Office of Tax Simplification" was set up in 2020 and closed down in 2023 after achieving absolutely bugger all. 13 years of politicians and mandarins sitting around drinking expensive coffee and biscuits and utterly failing to make any noticeable difference to the tax system. 13 wasted years. Over that time, the tax and benefits systems have got more complex and more unfair and anti-growth. You really couldn't make it up.

Oh, yes, I forgot, after loads of meetings they scrapped luncheon vouchers worth a few pence!

They don’t. Sunak paid virtually no income tax. Here’s the breakdown.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xnu6UUU7LkEPeL8QE-nK8YgTqhYQ2olfNcTu_X7lajs/edit?gid=0#gid=0

You said this.

"High net worth individuals tend not to pay income tax."

Which is complete nonsense. They pay 30% of all the income tax paid.

I didn’t. Read what I actually said again.

You have made me remember Sunak's Tory Party Chairman - Zahawi and his family company registered in Gibraltar. He got the sack for not disclosing the dispute about not paying tax - eventually. He also intimidated journalists by saying they were smearing him.

Sunak was slow in dealing with it. The BBC said:

Mr Sunak's judgement is borne of his character, but also his political circumstances: the fifth prime minister of this Conservative run in office, dire opinion poll ratings and restive backbenchers.
And so smothering internal anger is seen by No 10 as crucial, even if its consequence is the appearance of defensiveness or hesitancy.

You said they don't pay tax.

He paid 22.8% on £2.2 million.

His tax bill was over half a million pounds!!!

Here you go, all of you who accuse me of a complete lack of understanding of the tax system. A prime (excuse the pun) example.

https://taxjustice.uk/blog/rishi-sunak-pays-22-8-tax-on-2-2-million-in-earnings/

Defence: Launched a Strategic Defence Review and reaffirmed a commitment to 2.5% of GDP spending on defence

However they have delayed final decision on actual spending so the UK is no further forward on Defence which is genuinely concerning. These days defence means protecting our vital services from sabotage so that the lights are kept on and ensuring the population has banking and communication services.

They are also lying about ignoring the guidance on single sex spaces. Anyone close to this issue is very aware of how Labour ministers are sacrificing women's rights to appease extremists MPs.

That said I'm not keen on Kier being replaced by any of the other contenders - I fear it could be much worse. I had thought Reeves would be a capable chancellor but she has given into backbench pressure for tax payers spending which has been dire for the UK economy

High net worth individuals tend not to pay income tax.

This shows complete lack of understanding of the tax system, I'm afraid.

True, many high net worth individuals do everything they can to avoid paying tax. They often pay a lot of money to specialists to avoid paying tax where they can. (Please note that this is not illegal, only evasion is illegal.) They usually pay a lower % rate of tax than middle earners.

But that does not mean that they don't also pay a shed load of tax.

The top 1% in this country pay 30% of all the income tax paid. We cannot afford to tax them out of the country.

Can you explain this in more detail please? All income in this country is taxed, whether you are a high net worth individual or not. Income is taxed, dividends are taxed, interest on savings is taxed, capital gains are taxed, etc. This is why the government get the most tax revenue from high net worth individuals.

There are methods of reducing the tax bill in many of those scenarios, but we all take advantage of those, whatever our level of income. Of course those methods are of greater significance to high net worth individuals, but then, so is their tax burden.

Welcome to Mumsnet OP.

High net worth individuals tend not to pay income tax. And we don’t tax wealth in any meaningful way.

Sorry, should read:

Trade: Negotiated new trade agreements with the EU and India.

Translation, gave away things to India that had been sticking points in a negotiation which was largely complete at the time they took office, gave away things to the EU that anyone could have given away to get what they did in return. Neither of those are "negotiation", they are capitulation, just as the resolution of the train driver and the doctors pay disputes were.

Defence: Launched a Strategic Defence Review and reaffirmed a commitment to 2.5% of GDP spending on defence.

And increased welfare payments instead of reducing them, so they have no idea how that can ever be paid for.

And to add, had every intention of reducing the welfare bill but has been prevented from doing so by his own back benchers, who now know that they are the ones calling the shots.

Yes, it is easy to forget how bad it was under Boris Johnson. The way he promoted Chris Pincher although he was aware of his behaviour. Pincher was then suspended for groping two men.

That just isn't true though is it?

I would be interested to see your source.

According to the ONS, the majority of arrivals are British citizens (57%). So while they may be foreign born, they have every right to be here.

The majority of those leaving who have been identified are actually citizens of other countries who have somewhere else to go. Since Brexshit, it is harder for British citizens to just go and live elsewhere in Europe unless they already have dual nationality, so that is reduced.

Also, the number of people seeking asylum has reduced, and those that are have been processed more quickly with a greater number of returns.

As time goes by, there will be additional data available as the ONS are only starting to track the detail more recently.

All the current evidence points to the spread of origin actually being consistent with years gone by. The irony is that migration levels were more or less constant over the years right up until just after Brexshit when they rose sharply. Hoisted by their own petard is a phrase that springs to mind.

Me too. I think he has a stay of execution as none of the others want the job, but we will see how the next few weeks go.

To be honest, I still think they are less bad than the Conservatives, but they are doing their best to lower the bar. What on Earth he was doing appointing Mandelson I cannot fathom.

They changed the method of data collection. From random airport surveys to analyzing tax accounts and death certs. So you can't claim highest ever. Not till the statistic folk do the historical data.

I thought you were asking from the perspective of Labour ever recovering in votes.

Yes yes and yes again.

But apart from the soaring immigration, the destruction of the economy, the sleaze, the incompetence, the inability to even say that men are not women, they're doing a great job

Coming back to this one

@123H I think you must have missed the fact that the head of that new BSC has already resigned after 18 months because the job is impossible?

Labour screwed themselves over by guaranteeing no income tax increases - it was stupid and unnecessary and forced them to do even stupider things like raising NI.

They need stronger vision, eg should have stuck to their guns around winter fuel as in principle that was a good idea. But they need to have delivered that in a more clever way with consultation and a generous cut off, and not made it basically the first thing they did as an almost standalone measure so it became a huge focus.

Should have just delivered it in a normal budget with some other handouts for pensioners to soften the blow and a strong vision for additional support for young families, early childhood education, funding for teenagers to have something to do in the community, sports, training etc.

There are so many stupid things about the UK tax and benefits system - it would be amazing if they ran on a “simplification” pledge and just ironed out the whole lot - stupid taxes like stamp duty, the 100k cliff edge, the “mansion tax” which is literally a tax on a standard 3 bedroom terraced house in some parts of London… they need to look at everything as a whole and just fix it all. Make things simple and iron out perverse incentives.

Illegal migration up 564435%

Minimum Wage: Implemented a minimum wage increase, boosting pay for over 3 million workers.

Any government can increase minimum wage, not only do they not have to pay much of it, but it increases taxation.

BUT

Minimum wage increases only boost the pay of those with a job.

There were HUGE increases in the costs of employing the young over the last 2 budgets.

Youth unemployment is now rising sharply.