Importance of Gorton and Denton

I’m not sure you’ll take on board why but no I haven’t asked for it ‘all ways’, more that I don’t agree with your initial assumptions.

You can't have it all ways.

Either people have deeply held values which they won't readily abandon, or they don't.

If we accept that many people do have deeply held values that they won't readily walk away from (and I can attest that they do), then it is simply a question of whether people choose to view politics through the lens of those values. Some will, some won't.

I don't think it's rocket science. But you can keep telling me that I'm framing it all wrong if you like. It's a shame that you don't seem to be able to articulate why.

It’s not that either.

It’s just your framing isn’t right to start with, so each post doesn’t work. It’s not about this either.

People change their minds about stuff, certainly. And they will often make compromises when they believe they have to. But they don't usually abandon their most deeply held values and pivot to the exact opposite values overnight.

Anyway, thank you for the discussion. It has been really fascinating to see that some of you apparently don't have a clue what I'm talking about. I had perhaps rather naively assumed that most people would recognise the concept of deeply held values that are fundamental to how they live their lives - whatever those values might be. I always understood, of course, that some people's values might be totally different from my own. I also understood the idea that not everyone necessarily views political decision-making through the lens of their personal values at all. But it is a complete revelation to me that some of you don't even recognise the concept of having deeply held values that you wouldn't ever really abandon.

Very interesting indeed.

So the floating voters who move between polar opposite parties in this way are clearly making their decisions in different ways which have nothing to do with core values. I honestly don't know what is so difficult to understand about this.

How can you possibly make such an assertion? A trifle presumptuous to profess to understand a voter’s motives, no? You also ignore the ‘evolution’, for want of a better word, in policy. Take immigration, Labour appear to have moved to the right - dragged kicking and screaming, admittedly.

I find your assumptions interesting - as in reductive. And it partly explains Brexit, and the election of Trump.

By all means, have the last word if you wish.

I don’t think people have skipped from Labour straight to Restore. More like Tories and Reform to Restore and from Labour to Green.

I don’t think people have skipped from Labour straight to Restore. More like Tories and Reform to Restore and from Labour to Green.

Well, the key take away from that is that Restore are on the right of Reform.

If anything, that spells danger for Labour.

It applies to loads of people.

Not everyone, obviously. But that was actually the entire point of my argument in the first place. Some people vote on the basis of deeply held values or convictions which are core to who they are. Others don't perceive it as a moral choice.

I think most of you are getting hung up on the perception that I'm calling left wing positions "moral" and right wing positions "immoral". And you're so desperate to take that imagined argument down that you're failing to engage with my actual argument that people don't generally tend to abandon their very deeply held convictions overnight - regardless of whether the starting point is left or right. It does happen occasionally, of course, but it's rare that someone suddenly pivots to a completely different value system that is diametrically opposed to everything that they previously believed in.

I don’t think you’ve got this right. It might apply to you but you’re extrapolating without knowing.

This was after only 24 hours of launching. If you look on Reddit it seems quite feasible (unfortunately).

Oh gosh, we are going round in circles!

I'm not denying that there are a significant number of people who previously voted Labour and are now going to vote for Reform. That isn't in question.

I am merely saying that those people clearly weren't motivated to vote Labour previously because of deeply held left wing values that were core to their very beings, because it simply isn't credible that people who did hold such values would suddenly jump to Reform. They might abandon Labour, absolutely. But they wouldn't suddenly pivot to Reform as an alternative.

So the floating voters who move between polar opposite parties in this way are clearly making their decisions in different ways which have nothing to do with core values. I honestly don't know what is so difficult to understand about this.

Are they?

Can you share the data, please?

Thanks

Oh gosh, we are going round in circles!

I'm not denying that there are a significant number of people who previously voted Labour and are now going to vote for Reform. That isn't in question.

I am merely saying that those people clearly weren't motivated to vote Labour previously because of deeply held left wing values that were core to their very beings, because it simply isn't credible that people who did hold such values would suddenly jump to Reform. They might abandon Labour, absolutely. But they wouldn't suddenly pivot to Reform as an alternative.

So the floating voters who move between polar opposite parties in this way are clearly making their decisions in different ways which have nothing to do with core values. I honestly don't know what is so difficult to understand about this.

Well, I certainly struggle with the notion of morality applying to a profoundly immoral government.

As I say, (and ignoring your use of ‘far right’), if voters are prepared to put aside their ‘morality’ to vote for Reform over Labour - that’s an utterly damning indictment of this government.

We can continue to go round in circles, but one thing is clear - a significant number of Labour voters currently intend to vote Reform at the next GE.

What do you think are the reasons for that tectonic shift?

People are also shifting in droves from Reform to Restore due to the intake of former Tories into the party.

People are shifting from Labour to Reform. More than any other crossing from one party to another rn. That part of the post doesn’t hold up.

I am in that constituency and will be voting for Reform. Former Labour voter but can’t in all conscience vote for that shower of slippery fuckers.

If someone has deeply held left wing values, it doesn't matter how much despair they may feel with the Labour Party. Voting for a far right party is never going to feel like the answer.

If you can't comprehend that, then perhaps you are one of those people who doesn't view political choices as moral ones. Or perhaps you have a very different set of values.

Such is the level of despair with the party that would ordinarily represent one’s values, perhaps.

If, as is likely, many voted tactically to keep the Tories out in July 24 - they would have been voting for a party which is the moral antithesis, as you put it.

We shall ignore adherence (or lack thereof) to manifesto pledges, for a moment.

Not at all. There is nothing remotely incompatible with what I've said and the fact that people are dissatisfied or that they might vote tactically.

If your vote is driven by moral values, you may well vote tactically to get a particular party out, or indeed to prevent another party from getting in. But it makes no sense that you would vote tactically for a party that is the moral antithesis of everything that you believe in. What would be the point?

With respect, your logic is flawed.

It ignores the scale and depth of voter dissatisfaction with this government, and secondly, it fails to take into account tactical voting.

With respect, your logic is flawed.

It ignores the scale and depth of voter dissatisfaction with this government, and secondly, it fails to take into account tactical voting.

You don't have to agree with me. I understand that people who don't see voting as a moral question will probably never understand why it is that for many of us.

I don’t agree with how you frame it. I think your posts are true for you but that’s it.