Friendships and Trump

Off topic, but for the record, Kirk's opinion wasnt that black women shouldn't fly planes, it was that if an airline put in a quota that said 50% of their new pilots should be black or female (way higher than their previous hiring pattern) he would worry getting on that airline and seeing a black pilot as he may not be there on merit. He immediately qualified that with aomething along the lines of "and thats not the person I am, that's not how I usually think, but these policies cause you to consider this". Which you still may disagree with, but it is quite different from the earlier summary.

An Ipsos poll yesterday showed that 1 in 5 Americans were not aware Trump wanted Greenland.

I found that rather shocking.

The US media - particularly things like Fox ‘News’ is heavily biased in support of Trump & even other news sources are incredibly US-focused & still seems to have the US is best mantra. I follow a few expat Americans who have relocated recently & to say they’re shocked not only at how badly America is viewed by the rest of the world, but also how little world news is reported in America too is an understatement. The US has become very insular I think, more so in recent years. It’s not helped by their education system to really doesn’t educate them on anything much outside of US history.

No, you haven’t got it wrong. Whilst there are many in America who agree with Trump, there are also many who don’t. Many who are calling out this behaviour & actions. The Trump government are actively talking about either buying or invading/annexing Greenland which is a semi-autonomous country that is part of Denmark. The US has no claim on Greenland; the Greenlandic people wish to remain part of Denmark & do not want to be part of the US, but Trump & his cronies aren’t listening. My personal favourite quote was Trump recently saying Denmark couldn’t claim ownership of Greenland because a guy in a boat landed there 500 years ago - I mean, you can’t reason with stupid there.

Op - whilst I think it’s admirable you want to retain this friendship & try to see things from her side; and I believe people can be friends even with differing views - I do think you really need to evaluate what this friendship brings to your life.
If your friend is willing to put aside (as in not discuss) potentially divisive topics as are you, then you might be able to salvage the friendship. But I would question what else you can connect on?
Equally, whilst it’s fine to having differing opinions on say, the welfare state, believing that black women shouldn’t fly planes & women should submit to their husbands, those sorts of views are both racist & misogynistic & I don’t think I could be friends with someone who agreed with them.
And no, you haven’t put her in danger, unless you’d plastered the post with her name & home address - but it does sound like maybe she feels an inkling of guilt about how close the current ICE operations are getting to Nazi tactics & doesn’t like that being pointed out.

It’s part of the problem of modern day identity politics. Not just the very obvious trans ideology agenda, but also the more hidden in our echo chambers of the way we identify, and the way we then think about others. Our political identity becomes so enmeshed that we become unable to think of our politics as anything but “good” rather than a practical distribution of power and wealth.

the upshot is that the alternative is “bad”. It is not only not conducive to civil political discourse but makes friendship across the political divide difficult because of the inherent moral judgement tied up in political identity.

Start from the position that I may well be wrong. Obviously neither you nor I think we are wrong, and so we believe what we believe. However, starting from the caveat that even though I don’t think I am, it’s entirely possible that I may be wrong, or may have not conceived the entire picture, then allows you to treat others as though their choices and interpretations are, if not agreeable to you, at least valid.

That's way OTT for alleging you 'put her life in danger'?

The more I hear the more I think maybe just gently fade away. She sounds fanatical and a bit nonsensical. Above and beyond the fact you (and ,I) find her beliefs unpalatable.

Not if Trump invades Greenland…

I think I would struggle to maintain a close friendship with someone who had such wildly different views to me. Politics is important, it touches everything. I can't imagine I would have much in common with someone who thought Trump was a decent person, or that Charlie Kirk should be listened to - even British Christians I know don't believe that. You can be generally anti-abortion but still not believe a 10 year old should be forced to carry to term.

Religion is a hugely different beast in the US though, and there is a tribal element for some whereby if you are very fervently Christian, you are also a Republican. No matter what shape the Republican party takes at that moment. I think in the UK we all tend to drift a bit more - someone might identify as left-wing but votes Labour/Green/Lib Dem depending on their manifesto, the candidate, recent events etc. They might even vote Tory if a particular policy is very important to them. Things are more fluid, and are not linked to anything else (except maybe class, but I feel like even that link has reduced significantly in my lifetime).

Unfortunately the disruptive effect of Trump's presidency will continue to cause problems globally, as well as individually.

Though I think I would actually struggle to have a meaningful friendship with someone who was genuinely, vehemently anti-abortion.

I would totally respect someone saying THEY would never have one, but to try and mandate or control other women's sexual organs is a bit too much for me.

Well, morality matters. I’m struggling to see how I would want to stay friends with someone who think is it’s ok to say black women should not fly planes, basically.

I also can’t see myself wanting to be friends with someone supporting the sort of demented warmongering we are seeing, which threatens all of us and our children.

I would also find it very unattractive that your friend has adopted a ‘victim’ position in such a weaponised way.

You sound rather unsure of yourself OP when it comes to expressing your opinions - is there a side of you which feels you are not allowed to disagree with people? Do you feel unsure of your views? Is there any view anyone could express that would make you think - right, I’ll give this person a miss?

I think the real issue here is that your friend has gone in a direction of which you disapprove very strongly. The question is whether, when someone has views you find abhorrent, it is possible - or acceptable- to try to overlook them. For me, it would not be. I would feel sorry for a friend who expressed these views - I’d think she’d been badly taken in, conned by a liar - but I just would not want to keep the friendship going. I’d think she lacked both intelligence & moral principle.

In feel next time I’m in your neck of the woods we should get a beer!

I am pretty far left, and some of the best pub chats I have had re politics is with people on the right. Especially Thatcherites and US pre Trump Republicans.

But Trumpsters.... nah.

Trumpism seems to have no fixed ideology. It keeps changing depending on what happened this week. All my US friends I kept in touch with on social media are gone.

Either they stopped contacting me, or me them.

I think one can definitely have friends who have different beliefs, but usually to make that work you can't go around linking to the most personal aspects of someone's character (well, only if you are both "high decouplers" who enjoy that kind of thing. I've had many fun and deeply sincere conversations with people who will tell me they think I'm evil for x, y, z, and who are happy for me to tell them similar back for a, b, c reason. But such people are quite unusual I think).

It feels like both of you are very quick to personalise things, which you'll need to both try not to do. I admire you for trying to depersonalise and build bridges.

I think you need to accept that on many of these issues she (assuming sincere) really does believe that to do other than she would is to choose to do evil.

Are you the sort of person who would choose to do evil? (I'm assuming not).

So in some of these cases you are asking her really re-adjust her whole belief system to accommodate specific cases that, to her, will look like you are cherry-picking to paint her in the worst possible light.

Anyway, I don't think I'd agree with her on many things (maybe some). But I can entirely see how her belief system springs from some more fundamental beliefs about what is actually true (e.g. about morality springing from god's word). If you believed those things, you'd presumably come to similar conclusions.

And we only partly choose what to believe to be true. It's not a preference we can just switch, or which (at least not in a straightforward way) gives away whether we are a good person or not.

I realise it sounds like I'm falling over myself to justify her beliefs, most of which I don't share. But I hope helpful as you seemed to want help in seeing things from her perspective.

You could respond saying you

'Disagree strongly with you on this subject, but at no point was I trying to be hurtful.

You have different viewpoints on it and I was up for a healthy debate on the subject. Not to try and disrespect your views or force you to agree with me.

I think it's best if we avoid talking politics as we have so many other things in common and we should be able to put these differences aside in what is a strong and enjoyable and valuable friendship.'

So what was your meaning in posting this and likening this to Nazis and the holocaust?
agree with those that say don’t talk politics with friends.
you have your belief she has her, and they don’t match sadly.