Friendships and Trump

I get the fact that a certain part of the human population support fascism, racism, white supremacism, authoritarianism, suppression and corruption of democratic process, the dismantling of judicial checks and balances, and state-sponsored murder. What I don't get is how many of them expect the rest of us to tolerate their views and stick around listening sympathetically to them, rather than leaving them to fester in the disdain they deserve.

Often the sense of iconoclasm and trangression is even made front and centre when they announce such views. "You can talk down Trump/Farage/etc... but that's just the corrupt establishment trying to stop them speaking up for the people. I DON'T CARE WHAT PEOPLE THINK AND I'LL SHOUT THE MAGA TRUTH FROM THE ROOFTOPS ANYWAY!!!"

"Oh... You don't like me now? Hmm, turns out I do care what people think after all....."

Your friend has surrendered her humanity, so just leave her to it. I'm all for varied political discussion but human society also depends on a certain degree of shared values, and there are some things that are beyond the pale. Neville Chamberlain learnt that when you try to reason with this stuff and allow a place for it in mainstream discourse it just responds by pushing the boundary further, and the UK's recent experience of Brexit into Reform suggests that hasn't changed. Better to just isolate it like a disease.

American here, in the US but moving back to UK (please don't kick me out, this is an oasis of sanity compared to chat sites in the US). She is reacting that way because the evidence against Trump and his ilk is multiplying far faster than the Maga crowd can handle and far faster than the Maga elite can manage. The reaction, broadly, has been to dig their heels in and cling to random, ridiculous theories instead of facing the reality of their decisions and support of Trump.

Its everywhere here. Many families and friendships have broken up over this same scenario.

Almost certainly. I would have blamed no-one but myself, had they decided they'd had enough.

Having said that, I was very clearly blaming the print and social media, and not them, and enough quiet and earnest conversations had been had before, for me to think that they'd agree with that particular rant. I can't remember what particular news item we were talking about, but I didn't think it contentious at all.

I can't help but wonder if you might have been more successful with a quieter, earnest viewpoint, instead of a rant.

I agree about standing one's ground. But I also find that it can be possible to delicately approach politics, too.

I nearly lost a friendship of almost 50 years recently, through something similar. I was having a bit of a rant about right wing media misrepresentation (in person, over a pub meal) and unfortunately my fury at the media, they started to take personally.

They sensibly said that we should change the subject, and we tried to move on. But I was very aware that the friendship might well founder.
But we met up again a month later and we all kept the conversations safe, light and warm, as I think we'd all recognised that there was too much to lose.

But though I'm a lefty and they watch GB news, they still have strong morality, and they're very anti Trump. Had they been like your friend, I'm afraid I wouldn't have mourned the loss. In fact I would probably have been the one to quietly drop them.

OP, it seems that your friend has quite extreme views and if I were you I would sadly find it very hard, if not impossible, to remain friends with her knowing that. It's completely unreasonable for her to take your view that ICE is behaving in a way similar to 1930s Germany was a comment on her, and I really don't get her statement that you were putting her life at risk!
If you want to remain friends with her, you're just going to have to avoid all talk of politics for the next 3 years (at least) as various PPs have said. But I DO think you should stand your ground and be more confident in your views.

OP. Look at the state of the States. If your friend is doubling down on support are you sure you want to keep her?

The friendship may be salvageable. If this happened a while back send her a late Christmas card with a note - a real card through postal mail. Otherwise maybe a little letter/email. I'm sorry that you seemed to cave, though, because you were in the right. Instead of your saying you were sorry for having "crossed a line" (which you didn't), I wish you would have said something more like "I'm sorry you misinterpreted my hope of having a discussion."

Too bad she's a Texan. They tend to be nuts. Texas has a criminal as their Attorney General. You're absolutely correct in pointing out the stunning hypocrisy of so-called Christians, considering that Christ preached love, tolerance, mercy, charity. Based on what you DIDN'T say, I'm guessing that she offered no rational rebuttal, just got huffy. Because Trumpers are usually incapable of marshaling a sensible argument.

I wish there were an etiquette forum here, where maybe people could help you craft a reply that would make your point but still be a short of olive branch.

Maybe you can patch things up. But keep in mind that maybe you should ask yourself: Is someone who justifies murder and bigotry really the kind of person I want to keep as a friend?

Good luck.

I have known people whose friendships have ended owing to political differences. Whilst you can be 100% right to end a friendship for these reasons, it does not lessen the pain such an end can cause.

You can be friends with people who have differing views, sure.

But after this point? “She then went on to say that there was nothing wrong with his stance on not wanting a black woman to fly a plane as that is simply 'filling a quota'.”

No - I would not want to continue the friendship.

She’s in an echo chamber and wants to stay in her echo chamber. She has rightly identified there is a lot wrong with the world, then wrongly identified the difference between good and evil, enabling her to justify evil deeds for what she considers to be good ends, despite all evidence pointing to the fact that no good will come of Trump’s actions unless the “good” being done is to free the Earth from humanity.

Cult mindset. If you're not with us you're against us. It's probably best for you both to let it go, things are unlikely to improve for some time.

@YourBrickTiger apologies -
I thought you had sent it to her directly - am I reading in too much of a rush, that wasn't clear to me

so feelings are running high, I think it's a real shame to lose a friendship over politics though. But it sounds like it might have gone too far for a decent conversation.

The most helpful person when my father died was a lady whose politics are completely the opposite of mine. We've only ever had totally respectful conversations. When the shit hits the fan, it doesn't really seem to matter.

I suppose it depends what kind of shit hits the fan.

I think if possible in these cases you should try to maintain the friendship, because more division and less listening to each other is definitely not going to help things. That doesn't mean apologising for saying what you think or backtracking, but it might mean saying 'this is really difficult because we clearly disagree on lots of things, but I still really appreciate how generous you are and that we share a sense of humour' (or whatever). I guess she feels that spreading the nazi rhetoric is endangering her because people believe it and have a go. Difficult to have much sympathy with her for that but you could tell her you didn't mean to make her feel bad, which you didn't. I think we need to try to remain friendly and civil despite our differences otherwise we will never find a way to live peacefully will we.

However it sounds like it's not possible to maintain the friendship in this case but I think you probably did what you could. It is difficult isn't it. You certainly shouldn't apologise for your views just to stay friends as that would not be real friendship would it.

Yes it certainly has overall - but I was thinking of the brief Corbyn moment which I think will have pushed some wet centrists to make a corrective vote

Published by whom?

Where are you getting your information? If you can go direct to the source, then do. To be honest, a lot of what you've said makes me wonder where you're getting your information. And why would you send her a video of Nazis?! What was that about?!

I'm not even a Christian, I'm not an American - and I'm sick to death of seeing warped versions of things being attributed to Charlie Kirk that he never actually said. So easy to defend a dead man. Shameful.

I hope you can save your friendship. Maybe you both need to take a step back and think about how you communicate. Sending each other thirdhand versions of news and memes is not a great idea. That is not how to have a full conversation about any issue.

I think in friendship as in so many other things, it's about reaching a point of critical mass. I can cope with - actually not only cope with but actively enjoy - having relationships with people holding different viewpoints. Debates and discussions around these things can be so interesting and informative. However I think that all rests on how far those views differ from your own, on how far someone pushes your non-negotiables. Someone I know was famous for his old-fashioned (outdated) principles but everyone was able to get past it and maintain a relationship with him. Then I heard him say - and mean it - and try and persuade another male friend that 'all women need a slap every now and again'. When pushed on the point he said that women shouldn't push a man too far in an argument because they should know their place or get put in it. That was it for me. No more do I tolerate him. There are different views and there's outright repulsive, disgusting, misogynistic bullshit. He reached a point of critical mass for me.

See also abortion. I fully respect anyone who wouldn't do it themselves but cannot accept anyone who would approve of or try to influence abolitionist policy thereby trying to police others' bodies as much as their own. No. I've been sterilised btw and am too old to get pregnant anyway. I still couldn't be friends with anyone who believed that.

I had a friend who voted Brexit. He had specific financial reasons based upon his own business that influenced his vote. We are still friends. My cousin, who happily admitted he voted Brexit because he felt there were too many Indians in Britain (I shit you not) is an idiot too far in my view and I no longer feel any need to know him. Critical mass of idiocy.

Similarly I used to enjoy a discussion about left and right politics and how that differed between the US and UK but in my eyes Trump and his current posturing is all too much. I can no longer have any respect for anyone who supports Trump, no matter who or what else they are/do in their life. I would love anyone to give me solid, fact based, believeable reasons that explain how he's good and right and would love to be persuaded he's not just some kind of weird, orange lunatic, but so far I haven't found anything. The more he and his supporters say and do, the more I wonder if I'm living in some kind of parallel universe to them.

These are my views and my important points of critical mass. I don't expect anyone to have the same ones but I can only work with what I know.

You and your friend are now too different as people. Your points in common are outweighted by larger points of opposing view. Your friendship has reached this point of critical mass and actually I wouldn't, in your position, feel a great sense of loss.

I completely agree. I’m married to one of those old school Tories you describe. He had his head in his hands throughout Johnson and Truss’ premierships and Trump makes him feel exactly the way I do.

By the way, the centre has moved inexorably to the right in the last ten years.

I think there's a HUGE difference between 'not going there' with a friend whom you suspect might have voted old-school Tory in the past because of how they're brought up or because they're constitutionally stolid or because the centre has shifted to the left, and tolerating the humanity-hating views of a racist (ATSALT - All Trump Supporters Are Like This, they know what he is by now) violent, law-breaking, populist ,warmongering, predator (on every level) madman, about whom one can only ask not whether he will destroy the world, but to what degree.

It’s not about seeing or not seeing issue, it’s about misplaced energy. People in the UK spend countless hours obsessing over US politics, arguing online as if it makes a difference. It doesn’t.

What does matter is what’s happening here. This is our issue, and it affects us directly. The UK is steadily moving in a direction many seem either unwilling or unable to acknowledge. I come from a country that lived through socialism and communism, this country hasn’t.

If you don’t see it now, or don’t think it should be a priority, you will. And by then, it may be too late to pretend it wasn’t obvious.