Why don’t Labour get it?

Sweeping generalisation though and covering a whole range age of people.

I am heading for retirement.
Single parent, due to an adulterous husband. Always worked full time. I have an unbroken contract from the 80’s.
Second hand clothing, second hand Santa, old fully paid for cars, limited holidays and scrimped and saved to buy my own house.
My young adult DC’s have moved out, one rents with little chance to buy, the other has bought in a very cheap area, not somewhere he really wants to live, but it is a start. I can't support them with house deposits.

Retirement is looking about manageable, that is all. I've tried to save my whole working life. My house is worth more than it was, but so are all of the houses around me. It would cost thousands to buy and sell.

Maybe different for an 80 year old pensioner, I'm not sure, but not the amazing picture for me as a ‘newer’ retiree than you suggest.

I did save. I paid my NI contributions. That was the social contract.
Do you now want to renege on that contract? Shame on you.

The “problem” with pensions is that state pensions are trying to do two things at once.

when they were set up the original idea was that they were self financing, so it was just like a private pension pot except that it was run by the government. You got out related to what you put in, just like with private pensions nowadays.

but pretty quickly they realised that it wasn’t going to be self funding and it’s needed subsidizing pretty much ever since.

so the problem is that people think they’ve “paid in” and have a pot of money they are entitled to but actually this is not the case. In addition, lots of people who have not paid in much or at all (because for example disability benefits give you qualifying years for state pension as does child benefit until your child is I think 12) also have entitlement.

so the state pension is a weird mix of people who genuinely have contributed a lot of money towards it and if it were a private pension would absolutely have an entitlement to it - and people who haven’t.

it makes reforms to it very difficult politically.

I agree with the OP that investment in infrastructure and services is the way forward and I am a bit disappointed that Labour have not grasped this and got on with it to the degree that I had hoped. But they are still better than the last lot!

Cutting welfare spending is a challenge and often people say it should be better targeted - but spending more on means-testing (and the staff costs involved) can cost more than it saves in outgoings.

Investment needs to focus on helping young people to get the properly targeted education, particularly in the latter years, that will open up job opportunities for them.

What I can’t see the case for is our actual system, which pays out significantly more than was paid in, and then charging the difference to the current generation of workers.

particularly when that pool is shrinking

Please bear in mind that pensioners are taxed on their total income from all sources so effectively many pensioners have their state pension wiped out by tax anyway.

which is a great position to be in!

They are getting a return on their investment (compulsory) in the state pension scheme.

I agree that’s how it should work. What I can’t see the case for is our actual system, which pays out significantly more than was paid in, and then charging the difference to the current generation of workers.

They do get it but they are not here to serve the electorate. Lack of accountability and plum job on exit.

They are not claiming a state benefit. They are getting a return on their investment (compulsory) in the state pension scheme. The state cannot make people pay in to a pension scheme then refuse to pay their full entitlement.

@Mischance & yet they have increased the qualifying age & changes things like inheriting a spouses state pension.

It is a BENEFIT & the vast majority will take out more than they put in.

Nope. It’s a tax you pay when working. It’s not an investment.

It's time lower and middle earners in the UK paid their fare share like similar people in other countries.

@Dorisbonson

The issue is housing costs though,

It’s business that brings wealth and boosts the economy, jobs, well-being etc. They should be prioritising growing the economy with tax incentives for business.

They are not claiming a state benefit. They are getting a return on their investment (compulsory) in the state pension scheme. The state cannot make people pay in to a pension scheme then refuse to pay their full entitlement.

Please bear in mind that pensioners are taxed on their total income from all sources so effectively many pensioners have their state pension wiped out by tax anyway.

It's already meant to be only those who can't work who are looked after by the government working tax payers.

But it doesn't work that way.

If you can think of a way to fix that, do that first. Get welfare right down, then we'll see.

Welfare was actually more generous in the past, far more social housing for example.

You mean increase taxes the on 1% who currently pay 30% of income tax?

The bottom 75% pay circa 25% of income tax. In other European countries lower and middle income earners pay much more tax. In Belgium you pay 40% on any income over 2000 euros a year.

The top earners in the UK pay proportionally more tax than similar earners in Italy, Spain, Germany, France, Portugal, Belgium and Holland. It's time lower and middle earners in the UK paid their fare share like similar people in other countries.

The estimates for scrapping the triple lock would save between £5.5bn (IFS) and £15.5bn p.a. (OBR) depending on what state pension rises are linked to instead of the triple lock (e.g. wages). So not a huge amount in the grand scheme of things. If the state pension became means tested, those who have never worked would get a state pension while those who have worked have paid tax to support pensioners in their time don’t? I think that would be a hard sell and quite unjust.

What never seems to be brought up in the “bash the pensioners” argument is the £57bn p.a. that the very generous public sector pensions cost. These are index linked and public sector workers get them in addition to the state pension, paid for by the tax payer. This is causing a huge black hole in the finances which Government keeps strangely quiet about.

So that’s why you save for your retirement. Instead of expecting everyone else to pay for it for you.

It’s not the shelf stacker that’s the problem.

I don’t know what the answer is but other countries do not promote a welfare system as a long term solution

Housing is a big part of the problem. The UK overall benefit spend is similar to other European countries but we spend far more proportionally on housing costs.

We also spend less comparatively on the working age population & children hence why child poverty has grown.

You do realise that the state pension, despite the triple lock, is LESS THAN HALF the minimum wage?
If the state pension is your only income you have so little money that you are below the tax threshold of £12,570.

OP, your suggestions are simplistic and won’t work. If it was that easy, it would have been done by now. The UK economy is weak so a level of unemployment is inevitable and taxes would have to rise a lot to pay for what you’re wanting.

Yes we can cut welfare but, it places a higher burden on health and social care, and the police. Practical support for jobseekers is good, but costs a lot to deliver, and job seekers still have to eat whilst they job hunt.

Building infrastructure and the investment in public sector jobs should have absolutely been happening much more systematically over recent decades and now is badly needed. But who pays?

We do seem to have gone completely awry. Public services are a complete mess and there are too many people for whom not working is a lifestyle choice.

I fully want to support those who cannot work or have fallen on hard times but for many now it’s a way of life. There is so much criminality, obesity, just a general lack of social responsibility. It’s so depressing. Every other parent wants to home school - we are just breeding a generation of kids who may not be able to engage with society long term. We are storing up problems with all of this refusal to contribute to society generally.

Those of us in work shouldn’t be paying for people who refuse to work or to top up the wages of employers who refuse to pay their staff properly.

There are too many people who think a single uncomfortable feeling is a mental health crisis. My early days in my v stressful role were utterly terrifying but life is sometimes uncomfortable, sad and difficult. I am not taking away from people who have genuine MH disorders but for many it’s just not wanting to face anything uncomfortable.

I also think there are many parents claiming benefits for their children with SEN and other difficulties who could work - I know many whose children have attended mainstream schools. Yes, life is more difficult with a SEN child but for many it doesn’t equate to an inability to have any employment at all. Again, I am not talking about those with children whose needs clearly preclude employment.

I also agree that the wealthy should pay more and that the triple lock should go. I don’t think though that we should just tax the middle classes to death because we are already footing a lot of the bill. There is no inventive to succeed and be financially responsible. My parents worked hard all of their lives contributed to private pensions and went without in order to do so but many do their friends did nothing to plan and are not much worse off than my parents.

I don’t know what the answer is but other countries do not promote a welfare system as a long term solution. Quite apart from anything else who is going to pay for it? We have an older population and a sizeable chunk of the population not working - the bill cannot be sustained form taxes.

Farage has said the triple lock must go though, so I don’t think his bots would be saying it should stay!

Ah that old chestnut again - someone happens to have a different opinion to you, and it must be a bot. Grow up.