Reform plans to scrap indefinite leave to remain for migrants

Absolutely.

Leaving the ECHR would not stop the boats.

You would be giving up your rights for a lie.

Ahh thank you for the clarification, much appreciated. I hadn’t seen any comments from Brown! I do remember Blunkett’s comments and his frustration with the situation was palpable. I think Blunkett and Straw’s positions are both broadly reasonable and reflect the conversations going on in other signatory countries and amongst the judiciary also. In my personal view there would be some quite simple revisions that could be made relatively quickly to clarify the meaning of the ECHR provisions to provide guidance to courts on the limitations of interpretation, which would effectively “wipe the slate clean” in terms of case law and enable the ECHR to serve its intended purpose (very important for all of us!) while removing the vast majority of problems that are now arising from its implementation in ways that were unintended.

I also totally agree that this is a very different approach from that of the Conservatives and Reform, which I don’t see being advocated in other signatory countries, even those that already have quite right-wing Governments. The Conservative/ Reform position should be extremely concerning for all UK citizens: the policy of removing the UK as a signatory of the ECHR should be sufficient for any UK citizen who values their own rights and freedoms not to vote for any party advocating this. Once they’re gone, we won’t get them back. People died for us to have these freedoms yet, ironically, the very parties that are most vocal about freedom of speech and suchlike are precisely those proposing the steps that will pave the way for its destruction, and far worse. It’s doublespeak of the highest order.

Yes, you're quite right. My brain went new labour titan and went to Gordon Brown, and it was David Blunkett. Write in haste and repent in leisure and all that.

Straw said we should decouple out law from the echr, not that full withdrawal is necessary but there should be a temporary suspension until it gets it's shit together, my words - not his. Blunkett takes a similar view.

And yes, obviously this isn't the same approach as Reform, although these interventions represent sizable movement on a previously untouched ground.

The Conservatives generally , not just Jenrick, look like they are moving closer to losing faith in the ECHR entirely -including Badenoch and Tugenhat. I think we'll see more of this at their conference.

A lesson of tolerance? From someone supporting Reform?

I’m sorry that you don’t like long posts and can’t understand the impact of punctuation on the meaning of sentences, it must be a real struggle.

In this thread you have:

1. repeatedly made fabricated claims that I’ve written things that everyone can see I haven’t written;
2. sent personal insults to me and written personal insults about me to other posters;
3. repeatedly tried to project your behaviour onto me; and
4. continued to respond to my posts that were directed to other posters not to you despite the fact I’ve made it very clear to you that I don’t want to engage with your nonsense any further.

If you stop harassing me as you’ve done throughout the thread then you won’t have to struggle to read my allegedly “long” responses and I won’t have to keep telling you, yet again, to cease your boring and weirdly obsessive posts to me.

Not as far as I’m aware, but happy to change my view if you have any evidence to provide that they are?

As far as I know, based on Straw’s recent article in The Times etc, his criticisms of the ECHR were entirely valid and in line with those being made in academic papers like the one that I referred to in an earlier post and his proposals to reform it were similar to those being discussed by politicians in other signatory countries (again, per my earlier post), i.e. to revise it to prevent misinterpretation in case law, which is what seems to have been causing most of the problems. Straw was expressing a sensible and nuanced view as far as I saw - highlighting the issues with the current system which were not anticipated when the ECHR was drafted and advocating rational revisions to it to address these specific issues.

Unlike Jenrick and Farage he wasn’t calling for it to be scrapped entirely and all human rights removed even from those who are UK citizens, at least in the article that I saw which he wrote and was published in newspapers.

I haven’t seen Brown’s comments on it. Was he advocating the removal of the ECHR in its entirety and the removal also of the Equality Act 2010 protections in UK law, as Jenrick and Farage have done?

Please provide links if it is the case and either Brown or Straw have expressed an extremist stance comparable to that espoused by Jenrick or Farage as I’d be very interested to read what they said, if you’re not simply making a false equivalence between people critiquing the genuine problems with courts’ interpretations of the ECHR and suggesting ways to resolve this, and those expressing extremist views who are instead using the issues with court interpretation of the ECHR provisions as cover for their stated desire to remove the rights and freedoms set out in the ECHR entirely, even from their own country’s citizens.

Yes, but the residency is the key - which is part and parcel of ILR. So, just pointing out that these ILR migrants can vote, not that ilr confers voting rights specifically. And that accounts for a lot of our migrants.

The inference was that people with ILR would be excluded from voting against these measures at the ballot, and I was saying that doesn't apply to all.

If I recall correctly:

Commonwealth citizens can vote in UK General Elections as long as they are resident here, e.g. university students.

When the UK was in the EU, EU citizens could vote in European elections as long as they were resident here.

All ordinarily resident foreign citizens could vote in local elections.

If you were a Commonwealth EU citizen, you could vote in everything.

All this without ILR.

But in itself, ILR does not confer the right to vote in General Elections, e.g. if you're a USian with ILR you can't vote in GEs, you have to become a UK citizen.

Ummmm. No.

I've had ILR for over 30 years and have been voting in every election that's happened in that time. On the electoral role it correctly states my citizenship as non UK.

And fyi - no I'm not planning on applying to become a British citizen. I've thought about it in the past but it's been very much too expensive (£8k was the cost quoted to me a few years back) and when it was cheaper it would have meant me giving my passport to the UK government during the processing time of more than 6 months at a time when my father was seriously ill. I wasn't going to take the chance of not being able to visit him one last time or attend his funeral. Supposedly the process is much quicker and easier now but not the expense.

And even to get a visa can cost up to £1k. Imagine having to do that every 5 years for a family of 4.

A really interesting read on this topic in The New World today:
https://www.thenewworld.co.uk/jonty-bloom-nigel-farages-economics-of-hate/

And @Bromptotoo, the writer also refers to his ‘dog-whistling’ tactics, so no matter how it offensive (!) it is for others to hear, it certainly needs to be called out for what it is.

In what way is it offensive?

Do you know what dog whistling is in a political context?

Fartage has long previous for it; see his ads during Brexit.

Yes this the policy and it is why we need to be clear eyed about what the removal of these laws will mean for British citizens.

I mean, Reform don’t offer any guarantee of my current rights as a British citizen. Another point of concern

Farage isn’t talking about the current 2.7%, he’s talking about the 800,000 who are about to be able to apply for IDL. Many of whom are low skilled and on low wages. They will then be eligible for UC, DLA, PIP and all other benefits.

What an offensive comment.

Ooh nice thanks for the info

At the risk of being pedantic, commonwealth citizens with ILR can vote in the UK.

Agreed! You’ve be clear in explaining your views. We do see it differently, but it’s been interesting to listen to you.

I hope there are more debates like this myself

Yes there’s already a difference here. Idk why there are posts on the idea it’s the same for everyone.

Yes that's very important. My parent lived here for 40 years and never had the right to vote. Never chose to apply for UK citizenship (which would have given that right) as wanted to keep the original nationality.

A very relevant point!

Where doesn’t distinguish? I don’t think there’s anywhere.

There’s a very important right people on ILR do not have that UK citizens do: the right to vote in a general election.
This seems fairly pertinent at the minute..

I'm of this opinion too. That whilst has plausible deniability because it doesn't specifically target non-white people, it's a policy dreamt up in order to appeal to xenophobes and racists, who were getting tired of pretending they were only against illegal immigrants. The cruelty of such retrospective action could be considered a bonus appeal. Any cost of the policy is neither here nor there as it's about bringing in voters to get Nigel into power.

It's just your posts are so much longer than everyone else's and so frequent it's hard to have the time to give them the attention they deserve. You obviously give them a lot of your time so I'm sorry I'm not appreciating them enough. Must try harder!

Incidentally, see how Im not reacting negatively to your abuse about my reading ability? Not grassing you up to MN for personal attacks. Let that be a lesson in tolerance to you.