Reform plans to scrap indefinite leave to remain for migrants

Of course it's bloody personal. It's about people! Deporting people en masse means deporting individuals. Most of whom are net contributors. You can't deport the shop keepers without deporting the doctors, or the stay at home mums without deporting the carer that works with your granny in the nursing home. You can't have no immigrants and have a functional society. You can't even have the level of immigration we had in the 60s and have a functional society.

Well it's good you are backtracking now. I assumed you were writing for the Guardian with the tilting at windmills you were doing. Making up views you think other people hold in order to stridently argue against yourself. For some reason.

Clearly not, in your case.

Twisty turny Claaaw. We can all read your posts.

Oh dear. First you try to accuse other posters of things they haven’t said, and then taking personal offence at the things you’ve invented that nobody has said, and now you’re resorting to personal attacks on other posters and calling people names.

It's not personal although your DH clearly feels it is. The vast benefits burden affects us all. Its not about individuals. If he's a UK national then he too should be supporting any efforts to stop the bankruptcy of this country.

I don't know if Reform have the answer.

I didn’t say anything about “what everyone else thinks”. Why are you making things up?

I was very clear about the illogical and self-contradictory views that I was criticising, the holders of which Farage’s latest proclamations are clearly directed towards because anybody with a vague understanding of immigration law or economics can clearly see that his latest ridiculous proposals are unworkable, unimplementable, would be economically catastrophic and don’t address the problems with our immigration system that need to be changed to improve the situation.

I certainly was not attributing to “everyone” the ridiculous views of the xenophobes to which he is pandering with these nonsense “policies”. That would be a very sad state of affairs indeed.

Dh is an immigrant Doctor in the NHS, been here 30 years now. All this anti immigrant rhetoric has been upsetting him and making him feel unwelcome, I've posted that on other threads. Even though he has British citizenship this latest shit stirring from Farage will make him even more upset and angry. Most of the nurses in his department are Filipino or Indian, they are fantastic, and he's very proud of how well the department runs, he worries about them in the current climate. He's bought himself a T shirt with big writing that says "I am an immigrant" and wears it when he's out walking the dog or shopping! To be fair he's only had good feedback about it so far. Can't somebody gag Farage, the media need to stop giving him such a loud voice.

Again. The snobbery. You say "These Farage champions" and then you very decisively list some negative views that you assume everyone else thinks. In one big homogeneous group. For some reason. And without justification. Or presumably any knowledge at all.

I think this sums up the problem with politics these days.

I think my posts have been perfectly clear. I’m talking about flag waving Nigel Farage groupies.

Don’t worry. These Farage champions are allegedly really worried about terrorists coming to the UK and that justifies them supporting plans to deport thousands of long-term UK residents who’ve been law-abiding taxpayers here for decades, but they also disagree with the UK taking effective action to remove citizenship from a proven terrorist to stop her entering the UK again. There are no logical inconsistencies in their views at all, it all makes perfect sense (if you’re riding a unicorn).

Who are you addressing you comments to out of interest? Who are "these people"? Are we lumping people together in Keir Starmer type approach?

"On the plus side, it would mean that once Reform were removed from office (which would probably be messy and might have to involve bypassing the ballot box, because fascists never go quietly"

It would be helpful if you could explain what you mean by this. Are you suggesting violence against people whose politics you don't agree with?

Again. Topical.

These people are enraged about “double standards”, you see. They think there are “two tiers” for the rules applied to people and are outraged by this, unless of course they’d benefit from that: then its great! It’s different, you see…

Hypocrites.

I'm not sure about your specific example but I would try to gain British citizenship before the next election to be on the safe side.

I hope you don't imagine for a nanosecond that future Reform Home Secretary Lee Anderson would hesitate before stripping British citizenship from anyone who has acquired it (by naturalisation or any other means) and is deemed to be "not being British enough" — based on, for example, skin colour. Shamima Begum was born in the UK and that didn't help her.

On the plus side, it would mean that once Reform were removed from office (which would probably be messy and might have to involve bypassing the ballot box, because fascists never go quietly), future Your Party Home Secretary Zarah Sultana would be able to strip Stephen Yaxlen-Lennon of his UK citizenship and tell him to fuck off back to Ireland. Apparently in his youth, Stephen was a Celtic supporter and very much into the Provos.

Being a bit more serious for a moment: I suspect this is just more kite-flying by Farage, to keep the base angry and foaming at the mouth. It's like when they had the anti-vaxxer at the Reform conference: "We don't endorse this guy, but if you like his ideas, well, we're your party, wink-wink".

Maybe Farage is tired of his French girlfriend and wants to live his German ex-wife further away? Seems like a bit of a broad net just to go after the women in his life.

Eatlier this morning I read in the Guardian live feed that he wants to do this restrospectively too. So cancel the avenues to get naturalised now or in future and remove the rights of those that already got them. Make people re-apply every five years, including those already on an indefinitive right to leave.
So.... what will happen to the NHS? For starters. Most of the consultants we see around us are foreign or of clear foreign origin. What about if they go in mass? Will we have enough nationals to take their place? Mind boggling enough, the doctor strikes threads are full of people claiming them or their children cannot find a job as a doctor. Yet, on the other hand they tell us there are lots of vacancies....
Teachers, most here are Brittish, bit a few are foreigners, particularly language ones.
Around 1/3 of people in small shops around here are foreign or of foreign ascentry.
If he really wants to implement what he says.... this will change the every day rather drastically. I have no clue where he gets his savings. And if UK really can train enough people to cover. And fast enough. And if we will end up losing major skills and in an even worst situation. I do not trust Farage when it comes to this. I still remrmber the many millions the UK was to get gor the NHS after Brexit. Well..... where are those? How many new UK passport holders are being trained as we speak?

I am all for deporting those who refuse to integrate, have a dodgy agenda or are abusing the system.
But why taking it up with those who came, legally, worked and built a life here? Do we have to give them their taxes and pension contributions back if Farage chucks them out?

@Lifeinthepit It's better to look sensibly at what he said. Probably more constructive bearing in mind people listen to Reform now. No point just saying he's a "charlatan".

Why should we look sensibly at things he says when he's never done a sensible thing in his life?

They have contributory benefits systems, except for those who are disabled. They have a version of IDL but it doesn’t confer an automatic right to benefits. Benefits and pensions should be based on the tax someone has paid into the system - a proper insurance-type system. Benefits exempting disability ones are time-limited so you can’t claim unemployment benefits as a career. That also means that the amounts paid out can be a percentage of salary so that they are a safety net for everyone and sufficient to cover baked-in living expenses in the event of temporary personal issues such as unemployment, so there is a proper social contract.

If you move to another country usually you are required to register for an ID card to show address and residency, have health insurance etc because you won’t have made the necessary contributions to use their welfare state. That is sensible. If, however, someone has worked somewhere for decades and paid tax then of course they can get IDL in every civilised country and aren’t expected to reapply for it every 5 years unless they become a citizen. And, separately, of course they can use services once they have made the required tax contributions as long-term residents. They also don’t allow people to move there with loads of dependents without a much higher salary ratio to support that, which has been a problem here - since the Brexit that Farage initiated (this wasn’t really a problem with EU immigrants, just those that the Brexit loons replaced them with).

There are of course variations and different systems but most European countries operate their welfare state on the basis of contributions, not nationality. They set requirements for permanent residency/ IDL - and we should be more stringent on this - but don’t tell people who’ve been settled there for decades that they’ll have to reapply every 5 years in perpetuity and may be kicked out if their income ever drops.

We also have to recognise that UK real-terms earnings are quite low now by EU standards and are lower than those in almost every US state, partly due to the damage Farage and his ilk have caused to the UK economy. We have a large cohort of supremely entitled pensioners bleeding the country dry so we unfortunately need immigration and Farage instigated most of our net contributor immigrants leaving and us therefore having to bring in large numbers who are a net cost. In order to attract net contributors we’ll have to significantly improve the UK’s living standards: that’s why people from developing countries want to move here and successful people from the UK are leaving for better quality of life and higher earnings elsewhere! So if he wants high salaries and immigrants who are a net benefit, trashing the economy further (as all of his proposals will do) is not the best idea…

That someone else could be my husband. Absolute fuckers. Not that they weren’t absolute fuckers already.

Ot definitely has that flavour, doesn't it.

How can we make this miniscule financial pay off sound more impressive? Let's make it one big number over an undefined long period of time, that'll do it.

That could go on the side of a bus.