Reform plans to scrap indefinite leave to remain for migrants

But it’s very odd gesture to make, @Upstartled because as you note, on scrutiny, it’s barely a policy. That really leaves you with the intent, which imo is racist.

Why bother?

Oh dear, you’re back to more ad hominem attacks, are you? And now trying to recruit other posters to participate in the false claims you’ve made wilfully attempting to misrepresent posts of mine throughout this thread, all of which have been called out and shown to be false and some of which were so egregious that they broke the talk guidelines and have been deleted by moderators.

I have made no insulting comments to any other poster on the thread at any point. The only person who has done that is you, as evidenced by the deletions of the unwarranted and unacceptable personal insults you posted to posters with whom you don’t agree. How ironic.

Yes me again. Keeping you right 😃

You said "many sensible European countries have been discussing ways to amend the ECHR and interpretation through case law". I'm simply pointing out that it is impossible to amend the ECHR through caselaw.

Just trying to help you. You said in the same post that "Robert Jenrick is thick", so..

I'm not convinced that Reform won't be the next government. I don't think that it's xenophobic or racist to ask people to move towards citizenship to live in the country with all the benefits of citizenship. I do think it will be a difficult policy to put through though.

I'm neither quacking nor flapping, thanks. I just don't think that this meets the level of hyperbole being built around this...gesture of a policy.

Politicians are responding to similar pressure from voters. They know the ECHR is losing ground.

It might take some of the pressure off but it’s a similar to what we’re seeing here.

She often uses the term "These people". You do have to check but it usually means someone whose political views she disagrees with.

Absolutely. Reform is counting on sowing division coupled with complacency to pave their way.

I got a bit of push back yesterday about saying Reform were professionalizing. But they are. The presentation of this was both compelling and slick. It doesn’t make a difference I don’t like it. The appeal is there, it is effective, it sounded superficially reasonable.

It is really up to everyone to discuss amongst ourselves, not through ideas like these, what kind of country we want to have. Some of us don’t want people here who aren’t citizens. The only other class is a guest worker. I find the effect is racist myself

You again.

As usual with you posts, nobody stated that you could.

Case law provides interpretation of the treaty. Papers have been written - including one by a very experienced Belgian constitutional and immigration expert lawyer - highlighting the fact that the problems arising from the ECHR are primarily due to case law interpretations that have exceeded the intention in the drafting itself.

Sensible countries party to the ECHR have been holding discussions about how the wording of the ECHR could be amended to supersede this case law making it inapplicable by clarifying in the ECHR its limitations, and thereby also limiting unintended interpretations by the court going forward. Such amendments to it would make existing case law defunct and limit the ECHR’s application to that which was intended, which would prevent the egregious cases being brought to prevent legitimate deportations of criminals, for example, without going down the extremist Farage/ Jenrick route of saying “let’s remove all human rights entirely even from our own citizens”.

I wonder why Farage and Jenrick would be in favour of the latter, completely unnecessary, option when a perfectly sensible way to solve the problem without removing everyone’s legitimate human rights is available?

No. They are looking at extending the qualifying period. Not removing it.

@StarlightRobotI’m very sorry you’re in that position. It’s stressful watching these rabid fucking racists whip everyone up for their own political and financial gain, so I can’t imagine how it must be if you’re directly affected.

I hope these people never get anywhere near government.

All the parties are now looking at removing ILR though?

Yes, the waddling and wing flapping and quacking are rather clear indicators. It is, frankly, astonishing that some posters are (pretending?) not to understand what Farage is now stating openly and explicitly.

You can't amend statute using case law.

It is absolutely dire. It’s xenophobic, racist, a retrospective removal of rights which would separate many spouses and parents and children and which would also have a catastrophic effect on the UK economy.

@Upstartled Are they talking about savagely punishing taxpayers and ripping up their lives, and their families’, for the crime of not having been born here? If they are, then yes. If it walks and quacks, it’s a duck. That’s just common sense.

What worries me is that there is always some implicit thought that it can’t happen in the UK because there are some mysterious group of magic people who would defend principles of the rule of law which underpin liberal democracy. And they would win, somehow, and defeat policies like these or Reform.

That is simply not true. This magic cadre do not exist if you give a large majority to an extreme party. Britain has no written constitution, and it has depended on many conventions to manage its challenges over the centuries. But the idea it’s got some magic cast of people who would save the country from itself after a democratic election is wrong. We aren’t that bloody special, and it’s up to all of us to vote rather than cheese pare ourselves into accepting extreme ideas like this one.

Tbf Farage wasn't an MP at the time of Brexit. He was effectively part of a pressure group and had no political power.

No the responsibility for Brexit was the person who called a referendum with a 50% win cut off.

And Brown and Straw, are they thick and racist too?

And by the way, many sensible European countries have been discussing ways to amend the ECHR and interpretation through case law in order to make it fit for purpose. That would be a sensible suggestion. But that would involve international cooperation rather than an extremist position of removing rights of all residents and citizens due to limited and specific issues that need addressing; a sledge hammer to crack a nut.

Jenrick is also both thick and an extremist and I don’t think it’ll be long before he joins Reform.

@hobbledyhoy

From my perspective, while I agree Reform winning is not a certainty, I am trying to assess how risky a prospect these changes are. I am a citizen, my husband and children are citizens, my father is a citizen, but my mother is not. She is a citizen of two non UK countries and has settled status in the UK under her visa. She does not qualify for citizenship yet. She is retired and does not claim a UK pension and takes no state benefits, and meets the current visa financial test. I don’t think she will meet the Reform financial thresholds as she relies on her private pension for income. I am very worried she will have to leave if Reform win the next election, she won’t be able to qualify as a citizen in time. We will now have to worry for the next 3 years about what the future holds.

“These people” refers to the Reform politicians.

Yes some of this needs primary legislation. But a lot of it will also depend on secondary legislation which moves very fast and then even more quickly, the immigration rules, which really are for the government of the day to write to its own ends. People who think there will be a long constitutional battle may be disappointed, Retroactive legislation is also unusual but not impossible.

Most of the fetters on governments are due to the respect on the principle of the rule of law which we’ve built our country on. I don’t know where Reform are on that. Given they don’t like the ECHR, I guess laws they don’t write are suspect and to be ignored or overturned

Wow. I hadn’t seen that, I had not realised that was part of the plan. If that’s correct then that’s even more shocking. Just when you think nothing would surprise you anymore!!

What do you mean, these people? There are voices across the political spectrum suggesting that the ECHR is tripping up efforts to get on top of illegal migration. Off the top on my head, Jenrick and Brown and Straw