Right-wing American Pied Piper Charlie Kirk assassinated

Hate vs dialogue, dialogue vs hate.

Plenty of Democrats support gun ownership but it still doesn't make the policy right, not when people buy guns and shoot people. I've already said it's not about left and right....this about the right to live without being gunned down....that's what I think is more important.

The political rhetoric also has to be toned down, Trump is out of control as at the moment he's fanning the flames which is something Presidents should avoid.

The shooter was a young man, an obsession with guns. There are plenty of young Americans just the same. The man will likely face the death penalty in Utah which again is yet another tragedy and goes against all Christian beliefs.

At some point Americans need to actually start meeting in the middle and reaching a consensus because it shouldn't be a war, a shouting match of one gang against the other. Sit down and heal and come together and sort your messed up country up. And please don't bring your hate here.... because I don't want any of it.

I despair by how polarised we are becoming... What a sad reflection on humanity where we can't see past a tribe to know whether something is wrong or right... because believing in the tribe is more important than right or wrong....so if it saves a single life then banning firearms has to right

No need for me to fan the flames, the left are doing that all by themselves.
The killer or alleged killer was radicalised outside of the home. As others said he came from a Christian conservative home but even they were concerned by his comments he made to them previously, which was not from their teachings but from indoctrination by the left.

It sounds like he was radicalised outside of the home.
Same as the Southport killer who was radicalised on the internet.

I didn’t equate it to being pro murder. I said Kirk was hypocritical in his beliefs.

You said Kirk was "not anti-murder". Which suggests to me you think he's pro-murder.

Anyway I apologise if I was rude, there's no need. I'm just feeling frustrated this evening as I suspect a lot of people are.

Plenty of democrats own guns. And those that don’t should probably be thinking about it. I know I would be worried about being able to defend my family, given the way things seem to be going.

If the people who passed the second amendment were alive to see what it has become today I have no doubt they’d be horrified.

I didn’t equate it to being pro murder. I said Kirk was hypocritical in his beliefs.

@HereAreYourOptions no, I don’t. Because the people who argue for gun rights are on the side of the authoritarian regime.

Do you not think that some people in the US could be thinking that they might need to protect themselves from the government at the moment?

The argument for the right to bear arms to protect yourself from an authoritarian government is probably more relevant now than any time in the last 200 years.

The right existed to protect the people from the government. When guns were not what they are today.

@IGaveSoManySigns yes that's the original reason but that's not the reason most people on the right are pro-gun ownership today. Their argument is the "good guy with a gun" argument as you say. I'm not agreeing with them, I'm just saying can we please stop with the strawmen.

Equating being pro-gun ownership with being pro-murder is nonsensical. There are plenty of good arguments against guns, let's stop using stupid ones.

The second amendment was passed in 1791, in response to a fear of a militia led by the government. The full text reads "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed”. The right existed to protect the people from the government. When guns were not what they are today.

The “good guy with a gun” fallacy has been shown to be false, all it does is add panicked shooters into the mix.

Violence solves nothing and calling it out as a left issue which the president has done not only inflames tensions but puts out a dangerous message. It says that it's only left wing people that commit this sort of act.

I think America is heading into the abyss and it's time for the west to turn it's back on America and the American people. Please come back once you've sorted yourselves out because from here it looks very very ugly.

I don't know much about the victim but it's a sad affair and from what I've heard his views and manners were extremely provocative. He's famous for his liberty and gun speech which support ironically ended his life. The Fifth amendment has caused so much suffering in America....school shootings etc.....i just think what is the point of liberty if it results in meaningless killing. He boasted about his Christian beliefs and yet spoke about guns and liberty and they are worth the cost ...well this is the cost...and no amount of liberty can pay for that.

Here's my message to Americans, ban guns because if you don't the way you are heading is all out war. Guns don't make you safer just the same as carrying a knife doesn't.

Liberty isn't about guns, it's about being healthy, living your life how you want to live it, being free to talk and debate, owning a gun is a historic right that is no longer relevant in the modern world because the wild west is distant history.

@WellThisIsFranklyDreadful and yes obviously:

Guns are only a necessity for killing.

Their argument is not "we should be allowed to kill people with guns". Their argument is "I should be allowed to own a gun so that if I, or my family is attacked, I can defend myself".

This argument makes more sense in America where the chances of you being attacked with a gun are much higher than in the UK. I still disagree but that's the argument.

Ultimately it's easy to argue against this one as gun deaths are far far fewer in societies which ban guns (or at least have extremely stringent restrictions around them).

Not the shooter, all the cheering that he was killed.

I think that is what you would call a strawman.

I do not think that there is any equivalency between a car and a gun. Do I think that cars are generally too large and too relied on in American society? Yes.

But they are not, in their most basic form, weapons. They are for transportation. Guns are designed solely to injure, destroy or kill.

I do also find it funny that you couldn’t answer my original point, which is that he was a hypocrite in how he viewed life as sacred until such time as it’s children who are the victim of school shootings, so you instead pull this bat shit argument.

Vehicles are a necessity for many, many people in order to access their jobs, education, the supplies needed to be fed and clothed. They are a requirement for life for almost everybody, whether that’s using them themselves or relying on goods and services that have been transported by road.
Guns are only a necessity for killing.

@WellThisIsFranklyDreadful What if someone just has a car so they can pop to the shops and go on nice trips? It's not actually necessary for their life they just find it convenient? Maybe they just like driving? Does it justify the potential risk that someone could be killed or should that be banned?

@NorfolkandBad You asked the question:

"How did he react to one his worst "enemies", someone who tried to have him removed from office countless times ? (it's Ruth Ginsburg if you've forgotten) ?"

I replied with:

"In terms of how he reacted to RBG - yes, he said it was sad and that she was a legend - he then trashed her dying wish by trying saying that Chuck Schumer or Nancy Pelosi must have written it! Also, that was in his first term when he was slightly less emboldened than he is now."

Followed by my post which said RBG's death is not comparable as it is not a political murder.

I can't see another question that you have asked me?

However - you have not answered my question about why you see referring to Charlie Kirk as an influential right wing campaigner is a slur given that it is objectively factual.

Motor vehicles are a necessity in modern society. Our infrastructure is dependent on them in terms of supply chain for everything from food to medications. Without vehicles, we’d have no emergency services.

Vehicles are a necessity for many, many people in order to access their jobs, education, the supplies needed to be fed and clothed. They are a requirement for life for almost everybody, whether that’s using them themselves or relying on goods and services that have been transported by road.

Guns are only a necessity for killing.

But he’s not anti-murder. He explicitly said he thinks that school shooting victims are a necessary consequence of having the right to bear arms. It’s not a strawman just because you disagree.

Do you think road deaths are a necessary consequence of having the right to drive? Or should we ban cars because they're dangerous?

But he’s not anti-murder. He explicitly said he thinks that school shooting victims are a necessary consequence of having the right to bear arms. It’s not a strawman just because you disagree.

Ok that's a no then

If you want to see Charlie Kirk's views on abortion get properly taken down (and not as a strawman) then this lad from Cambridge does a good job:

https://youtube.com/shorts/mcjGdhp8dgM

TLDR - Charlie Kirk's argument is that egg and sperm are entirely disposable until a fraction of a second after they fuse together, at which point that fused cell has as much moral worth as the 10 year old, raped girl. Patently ridiculous and incredibly dangerous.

Please point to where I said that? I said he was from a conservative Christian family, and oh look - he is.

I know who I meant - and you haven't answered, you've merely deflected. That doesn't work with me, if the question was too difficult we can move on.

Anything to say now that the shooter has been apprehended and was in fact a white guy from a Christian, conservative family……?

Oh come on. The guy wrote Bella ciao on the bullet. He's not right wing. This kind of bull drives me bananas. You're just as bad as the others.

Is all life sacred and in need of protection at all times, or some life is disposable of you get to have a gun?

@IGaveSoManySigns that's another strawman. They don't believe life should be protected at all costs. They believe abortion is murder as it is intentionally taking away another life. They are anti-abortion for the same reason they are anti-murder. (Again, I disagree but this is the argument).