Have we not learned that Appeasement doesn't work?

There is an easy answer - if West had guts to redistribute those 300bn or frozen Russian assets, give it to Ukraine or even use yourself, Putin would be eliminated internally.

And I'm not even talking about all this support with weapons - if Ukraine had enough in 2020 and even 2023 they'd get all their land back incl Crimea without all these thousands of dead.

But they won't mobilise will they? Europe can't even keep up with its Nato payments unless Trump threatens them and we have seen this. So why hasn't the west mobilised. Most of this war has happened during Biden's rules. Why didn't he mobilise or strike a deal. Or is the West ok to keep the current status quo? As long as the Zombie is feeding on my neighbour he is not feeding on me so I keep him busy there but also keep the neighbours alive to keep the zombie feeding on them?

Why do you speak such wisdom?!

It's true. Things are not black a s white. I would like it for others to make concrete efforts and steps forward but not seeing much so Trump is for better or worse stepping in

Russia’s only viable path to military victory is not through blitzkrieg tank thrusts but through a slow war of exhaustion. To win, Moscow would need to systematically cripple Ukraine’s rear with sustained missile and drone strikes on energy, transport, and ammunition infrastructure, while neutralizing Western-supplied systems like F-16s before they can be fully integrated. Maintaining firepower superiority through massed artillery and cheap drones, Russia could pursue incremental “bite and hold” gains rather than risky deep offensives, grinding down Ukraine’s manpower and logistics faster than Western partners can replenish them. The ultimate objective would not be outright conquest, but to outlast Kyiv and its backers by betting that U.S. and European political will fractures under the weight of prolonged costs, leaving Ukraine militarily unsustainable and forcing concessions on Russian terms.

Ukraine isn't losing. Putin hasn't made much gain, he's getting troops from N Korea, the sanctions are hurting and it's rumoured that Russia might be moving into a recession.

Unfortunately Ukraine giving up land isn't really an option due to international law and setting a precedent. Putin could simply invade another country and do the same in a few years.

Putin doesn't want Ukraine to join NATO and doesn't want NATO troops in Ukraine. Europe is worried about further escalation, so at the moment it's a very slow game of chess.

Sound sense. Have the British become incapable of negotiating the end of any war because you always remember Chamberlain? Ukraine is losing and would keep on losing. It is running out of men. So the anti-appeasement people are quite happy to destroy even more Ukrainian lives on a lost cause

What bargaining chips do you think "the West" has right now?

im not sure on that one

This sums it up:

Russia is in fact struggling. I think Putin is putting pressure now because he needs to see this resolved as much as Zelensky does. If Trump was such a skilled negotiator he'd take advantage of the opponent being in a difficult position (economically the war is taking its toll)

I agree that appeasement won't work although I know there are no easy answers.

Putin has no intention of stopping with whatever he gets. In fact, I believe he would rather like to rebuild as much of the former Soviet Union as possible, and then some.

The problem is, Trump is as thick as shit and also very egotistical. He really does seem too stupid to see this, or to see that he is being played by Putin.

Trump thought when he first returned to office that he would be able to stop the war in Ukraine in about 24 hours and said as much publicly. Predictably of course, it didn't work like that. Here we are 8 months on and he still hasn't learned anything. There has never been a more stupid (or dangerous) US President. He can't seem to see that Putin is not his friend and is playing him.

It makes you wonder how big a rat has to be before Trump will finally smell it!! I guess that's why all of the other European leaders had to abruptly drop everything this week and rush to Washington. I don't remember that ever happening before. They can see the direction of travel here. Trump is too much of an arse.

A lot has happened in Europe and in Russia and other Eastern states since 100 years ago. It's literally a different world now. The USA got nuclear weapons and used them, then loads of other countries got them. The Soviet Union was created, then disbanded, then the post-soviet treaties were eroded ... this particular disputed border has arisen because of said erosion and NATO expansion (and internal Ukraine corruption), not because of anything remotely resembling Lebensraum - clearly, given that several years in there are no new fronts.

The UK, as a country geographically (and now, sadly, economically and politically) separate from the continent and a history of being in extended hock to the world's biggest nuclear power was at the time of increased hostilities a really useful ballast but we've done that job now, Russia doesn't have any greater designs, and it's time to cool the whole thing down. It's going to be a messy border but it always was anyway, since post-soviet lines were drawn. There are messy borders all over the place. The UK itself has one with Ireland for eg. That doesn't mean the UK is Hitler, and Donbas doesn't mean Putin is Hitler either.

Sure "MsAmerica"

Whom are you going to mobilise, exactly?

And if the West truly mobilized, Russia would fold.

"Free world" is a term historically used during the Cold War to describe countries that were not part of the communist bloc

what if the world or majority of the free world just went to defcon 1 and pointed them at russia ?

Sky News can say whatever it likes. The world was horrified and the round of applause for Zelensky rippled round the globe.

Can I just offer a kind word for Chamberlain?
When Hitler took his troops into the Rhineland in 1936 we actually couldn’t have won a war. We needed time to rearm ourselves, time to build up the navy and RAF. Appeasement gave us that time.
Also our allies were not in a position to fight either, we would have stood completely alone if we had declared war any earlier than 1938.

sorry I know this isn’t the purpose of the thread, it’s just that I’m a history teacher and this period of history has been oversimplified to make it a moral story (easy to sell to year 9) when the reality is more complex.

the thing is if russia truly mobilised then Ukraine would not last long.

Appeasement has never brought about long term peace, the only advantage prior to WW2 was that it gave Britain time to build up arms.

Of course it also gave Germany the same, so its up for debate if this helped the Allies at all.

Appeasement will not end aggressive expansionism.

Zelensky is amazing. And even more amazing when one keeps in mind that his background isn't in politics, but in comedy.
Zelensky's self-control, when Trump attacked him so horrifyingly in the White House, was phenomenal.