Page 4 | Does the UK still have an 'intellectual class'?

NormaSnorks · 2025-06-02T11:20:22+00:00

Not sure if this is politics or society really, but I found myself thinking about this after a couple of social events. I'm in my 50s and have a group of friends and when we meet I'd say we are are 'intellectually curious' - interested in the news, literature, the arts etc and happy discussing and debating things. We can have very different individual views on things, but we'll be respectful and remain friends at the end of the day. I find our discussions interesting, sometimes challenging and occasionally I change my view about something as a result. But I don't see this kind of approach around me in other social groups, or in my adult children's friends, or even much in the media? It seems people are either unable or unwilling to discuss anything of substance and become deeply uncomfortable with disagreement? Is it just a generational thing? Where and who are the young intellectuals?

Original poster

NormaSnorks · 02/06/2025 14:42

IgneousSedimentary · 02/06/2025 14:33

Yes, but that’s not what the OP is asking. She’s asking if there’s still an ‘intellectual class’ in the UK, not whether there are pockets of intellectually curious and or/well-informed people, which of course there are.

I assume she means something more like ‘intelligentsia’ as defined by Weber or Bourdieu, or Richard Flacks’ definition as those people within a society who produce, disseminate, critique, or interpret that society’s cultural values.

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Thank you - yes, I guess that WAS really what I was asking, although the discussion has expanded into a debate about intellectual debate too.

A old uni friend of mine remarked on two things she's observed in her work with younger generations (in the arts) - she says they tend to say:
"I feel" rather than "I think" and
"I saw" rather than "I read"

I experienced a young woman in a book group recently pulling up a TikTok video to try to reinforce a point she'd made. It was slightly surreal.

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Original poster

NormaSnorks · 02/06/2025 14:35

Complet · 02/06/2025 14:30

Yes same here. Isn’t it more to do with social groups and like minded people becoming friends?

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I think it is, but I feel as if the groups of like-minded people aren't being replenished with the younger age-groups.

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IgneousSedimentary · 02/06/2025 14:33

Feetinthegrass · 02/06/2025 14:25

What you have described is just standard conversation in my circles. We are all 50+ and unless there is a bare minimum of this kind of interaction I just couldn’t and wouldn’t be able to bear it. I can become so intolerably bored with inane people/conversation.

I listen to my teens and they are very similar, love to debate. Intellectual curiosity is alive and well in my experience.

Yes, but that’s not what the OP is asking. She’s asking if there’s still an ‘intellectual class’ in the UK, not whether there are pockets of intellectually curious and or/well-informed people, which of course there are.

I assume she means something more like ‘intelligentsia’ as defined by Weber or Bourdieu, or Richard Flacks’ definition as those people within a society who produce, disseminate, critique, or interpret that society’s cultural values.

Octavia64 · 02/06/2025 14:33

I used to live in Cambridge and there was no shortage of them there…..

derxa · 02/06/2025 14:33

Intellectualism has always been viewed with suspicion in England. Why that is I don’t know.

Original poster

NormaSnorks · 02/06/2025 14:33

Feetinthegrass · 02/06/2025 14:25

What you have described is just standard conversation in my circles. We are all 50+ and unless there is a bare minimum of this kind of interaction I just couldn’t and wouldn’t be able to bear it. I can become so intolerably bored with inane people/conversation.

I listen to my teens and they are very similar, love to debate. Intellectual curiosity is alive and well in my experience.

That's good to know. Perhaps I just need to move!

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Feetinthegrass · 02/06/2025 14:33

GetMeOutOfHere20 · 02/06/2025 14:27

I often think this OP, I definitely think with my in-laws in their 70s my DH and I can have these conversations. I find with my peers, often it can be driven by opinion and images on social media.

There is less wider reading and free-thinking. I do believe AI will make this worse.

Nevertheless I know my university friends and I have some interesting conversations. Although I’ve noticed there have been zero discussion of Gaza or Israel

The zero discussion on Gaza is something I noticed too. It is deeply unpleasant on both sides.

Complet · 02/06/2025 14:30

onthewineagain · 02/06/2025 12:21

Most people I know are like this. Have never considered it as being a separate class. Just standard to me.

Yes same here. Isn’t it more to do with social groups and like minded people becoming friends?

Original poster

NormaSnorks · 02/06/2025 14:30

derxa · 02/06/2025 14:22

Not a Botox clinic and a beer festival!!!! The world has gone to hell in a handcart.

Indeed it has!
And there are only so many times one can cope with reading
'Help! Can sumone do me some Shellac nails for tomo plz. Thx huns xx'
on the town Facebook page...

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GetMeOutOfHere20 · 02/06/2025 14:27

I often think this OP, I definitely think with my in-laws in their 70s my DH and I can have these conversations. I find with my peers, often it can be driven by opinion and images on social media.

There is less wider reading and free-thinking. I do believe AI will make this worse.

Nevertheless I know my university friends and I have some interesting conversations. Although I’ve noticed there have been zero discussion of Gaza or Israel

Original poster

NormaSnorks · 02/06/2025 14:25

If you’re hanging out on MN you’re not an intellectual.

I've been on MN since it began, and what's funny is that in the early days it very much was home to a highly educated, middle class female audience, many of whom were in academia or civil service etc. Posts were longer, well-constructed and punctuated and there was lots of respectful debate!

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Feetinthegrass · 02/06/2025 14:25

What you have described is just standard conversation in my circles. We are all 50+ and unless there is a bare minimum of this kind of interaction I just couldn’t and wouldn’t be able to bear it. I can become so intolerably bored with inane people/conversation.

I listen to my teens and they are very similar, love to debate. Intellectual curiosity is alive and well in my experience.

DelphiniumBlue · 02/06/2025 14:23

I've seen anti- intellectualism in some schools, where the more academic children have been mocked by the teachers for preferring to sit in a corner with a book rather than discuss the latest reality TV.
My DC ( 25-35) do now have friends and colleagues with whom they can discuss politics, philosophy etc but all of them struggled at school finding their tribe, and felt they had to dumb down to fit in. The internet has really helped in making a much wider social circle possible, and the ability to link to articles and ideas makes the world of ideas within reach of many more people.
But I am often surprised by the general ignorance of many of the young people I meet.

derxa · 02/06/2025 14:22

Not a Botox clinic and a beer festival!!!! The world has gone to hell in a handcart.

IdaGlossop · 02/06/2025 14:20

I suspect the entrenchment of the British class system has a role to play here, and a suspicion of 'intellectuals'. In the UK, it hard to imagine being towed from a ditch by a father-and-son car repair team and them talking knowledgeably about Tiepolo, which happened on a trip to Italy once.

IgneousSedimentary · 02/06/2025 14:08

Overtheatlantic · 02/06/2025 14:04

And no, my comment doesn’t illustrate anything except my disgust at faux intellectuals. If you’re hanging out on MN you’re not an intellectual.

What nonsense.

IgneousSedimentary · 02/06/2025 14:07

NormaSnorks · 02/06/2025 13:39

Yes, intelligence is rejected and ignorance rewarded for its comic value.

In a show such as The Traitors (and yes, I took time out from my intellectual discussions to watch it...😉) the contestants who seemed the most intelligent/ analytical were often rejected/ regarded with the most suspicion.

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Yes, and even commentators like tv reviewers in broadsheets appeared to think that it was a sign of poor emotional intelligence or social nous not to have realised that not disguising their intelligence was a silly move. (I’m thinking of that Asian woman with a doctorate in communications was, I think, the first to go in the last season).

And of course they weren’t wrong, which is depressing.

It will be interesting to see if people who have a reputation, earned or not, for high intelligence are voted out first from the celebrity version. I don’t know the full lineup, but people like David Olusoga or Stephen Fry. Will be interesting to see whether someone like Nick Mohammed (who is known as an actor and comedian, but has an impressive academic track record) is treated similarly.

Overtheatlantic · 02/06/2025 14:04

And no, my comment doesn’t illustrate anything except my disgust at faux intellectuals. If you’re hanging out on MN you’re not an intellectual.

Overtheatlantic · 02/06/2025 14:02

HappyNewTaxYear · 02/06/2025 13:00

I don’t see how? Many people are content never to think about or discuss anything in depth. I don’t think OP means social class. I think OP is simply referring to the section of the population who are interested in politics and culture beyond the current yes/no, right/left, good/bad levels of discourse we see on social media. As a pp observes, your comment illustrates this perfectly.

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I was responding to the pp who thinks Stephen Fry is the height of anti intellectualism.

HappyNewTaxYear · 02/06/2025 13:57

John Major said ‘Only in Britain could it be thought a defect to be too clever by half’.

He said that quite a long time ago now, so maybe not much has changed.

VonBonbon · 02/06/2025 13:52

I suspect an increasingly combative online environment has made people wary of discussing anything which might lead to a horrified scolding, followed by a public disowning. I’ve got plenty of opinions. I just keep them to myself these days.

Kathbrownlow · 02/06/2025 13:52

I'm no great shakes intellectually but when I was younger, I often used to act stupid in front of peers because it was just easier. You get a lot of flak and 'who does she think she is' if you're not careful. Plus yes, the suspicious looks.

Original poster

NormaSnorks · 02/06/2025 13:49

onthewineagain · 02/06/2025 12:21

Most people I know are like this. Have never considered it as being a separate class. Just standard to me.

Do you work in a more intellectual profession or live in a university town perhaps?

The town I live in used to be a lesser known commuter belt one, but in recent years has become more attractive to what people call 'new money' (think footballers wives etc).

We've lost the independent bookshop and the summer classical music festival in the park, but we've gained a botox clinic and a beer festival!

My DC (young adults) are used to family discussions and debates about a wide range of topics, but they admit that they 'dumb it down' with their peer group at work and socially (except for their close friends).

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EllatrixB · 02/06/2025 13:45

I'm not sure what the answer to this is really, but interested in the conversation around it

Kathbrownlow · 02/06/2025 13:41

I see it in politics, too, in some MPs. Profoundly depressing.