Labour voters….

Lower and middle income workers people can't afford to pay any more tax. They're already paying ridiculously high housing costs, childcare costs, council tax, utilities, student loan repayments, NIC, etc. We can't keep squeezing the same people.

The main category of people who need to pay more tax are those with non-working income, i.e. interest, pensions, property rental income, etc. who are paying way too little.

We really can't justify a pensioner with total income of £50k from a mix of pensions, property let, interest and dividends paying less than a worker on £50k.

We need to "make work pay" to get more people working and more part timers working more hours. Hiking taxes on workers will do the opposite.

It’s lower and middle income people that don’t pay enough tax in this country when compared with other European countries. If we want better public services, everyone has to pay. This fixation on people earning £100k plus is contributing to our stagnating economy and encouraging highly skilled professionals to leave the country.

There is also a generational conflict between the old and the young that needs to be managed. So whilst WFA for the poorest pensioners should not have been withdrawn and especially not on such short notice BEFORE the winter, it absolutely should not be going to richer pensioners with housing assets and large pensions.

@footpath

Not this again... most people haven't earned that equity & younger generations are paying for it.

How are younger people paying?

Do you really think Reform can deliver what they promise?

Until they are given the opportunity, it will never be known.

Triple lock day the pension increased by 4% but that's never discussed.

100% - the 2024 intake were gifted a 100k a year job by the PM. Many of the ‘golden children’ were hand picked by him / the party. They quite like the 100k a year jobs and have realised if they continue in their newly won roles - towing the party line - they are toast next election.
They are fighting for their own jobs - and their priorities are to get themselves re-elected. There are enough of them who will, at some point, be prepared to break the whip to save their own skins - and that’s quite a lot of power to hold over the pm.

The party needs ‘wins’ quickly. They need to invest (and are doing) in green jobs of the future and work and skills. The housebuilding will pee off the nimbys but has to happen.
the NHS seems to be powering through waiting lists now using private health care to do so, but leave political purity to people not unable to work because they need an op.
This country, is the only country, that has exponentially increasing numbers of people on benefits. Why is that? Do we really want these people written off forever?
We all know someone (a relative/ a family at school) who have swung the lead to get benefits (I now await people steaming in with info of their incredibly difficult lives with incredibly complex illnesses and needs trying to shut this down - these people will not be affected at all). But Dave with the bad back, not worked in decades, has a mobility car and a decent(ish) life (not one I would want but still) the gravy train is coming to an end. If you are scrubbing toilets / driving a bus and seeing people who do nothing and have a comparable standard of living you should see your work starting to pay.

So while the messaging is terrible- the bones are there.
Also ‘it has been less than a year’.

They ignored anyone on this talking about poorer pensioners. And may reverse, so it’s their own doing if they get backlash.

I agree that the cut off was in the wrong place, and they need to look at this. I do agree with the principle of means testing though. Richer pensioners don't need handouts from the government to subsidise their winter cruises.

Look at the polls and the local election results as that would give a clearer picture. The votes for Reform aren't going to be just an objection to illegal migration. I'd suggest its much bigger than that. It's an objection to legal mass migration over the last 20 years and community changes and pressures.

I agree with this

The problem for Labour not true for all. After ignoring charities and any impact assessment it’s the local elections and threat to their own careers that will get them to shift.

😂at "winter cruise allowance".

So true in some cases!

The personal tax allowance has been frozen for several years. This drags more people into paying tax with those at the lowest end of earnings affected the most.

lower & middle earners pay less tax vs other countries.

Do you really think Reform can deliver what they promise? 😆

Due to high cost of housing, many young people can only get on the property ladder with help from their parents. If the current young generation are unable to accrue assets, how will they be able to provide for themselves in old age and retirement?

Housing shouldn't be an asset & work should pay.

No inheritance tax for estates up to £2 million. Assets that people have accrued throughout their lives have been paid from nett income after tax. So, to tax again seems double dipping.

Not this again... most people haven't earned that equity & younger generations are paying for it.

I think all the things that need fixing have just been allowed to spiral out of control for too long now and probably are beyond fixing. Immigration, benefits, NHS, too many people not working, law and order seemingly out of control. No idea how we come back from the brink

The imo ridiculous outrage about means testing wf means we can't come back. The country is doomed, too many want someone else to pay.

I do not think it is as bad as people are making out.
the country is in a mess. The winter cruise allowance has been removed from some (rightly so) it seems to be impossible on MN to have a sensible discussion around removing benefits from some people - so many people seem so very invested in no scrutiny of anyone claiming anything ever.
The messaging is terrible, that’s unforgivable.
I think there’s moves beginning to get rid of SKS / RR knowing how these things work and reading the room / mood music.
I will stay put - as I did through the Corbyn years.

It depends what type of media you are listening to. Unfortunately we are all being fed what we want to hear depending on our own views.

Look at the polls and the local election results as that would give a clearer picture. The votes for Reform aren't going to be just an objection to illegal migration. I'd suggest its much bigger than that. It's an objection to legal mass migration over the last 20 years and community changes and pressures.

@MissJeanBrodiesmother
Yes I agree with you

I could not believe my ears when starmer announced this idea One of the most short sighted things I'd ever heard.

I disagree. Every news show or interview I listen to the issue is never legal immigration

Unless the govt go down forced labour routes brits won't be queuing up to work in care homes. It will cost too much as we have a massive increase in over 80s coming in a few years and it's already too expensive.

Unless we are all willing to pay more taxes.

The care workers that my son has had under these schemes have been excellent - hard working, kind and committed. They pay taxes and contribute to society. Why is it that Labour want to welcome so called higher skilled people but don't want hard working people for a shortage occupation?

I am also astounded at the frankly inflammatory soundbites such as Island of strangers crap being peddled. Labour should be ashamed. I note that they are taking no notice of their mps. Let's hope they take notice of the countries as they will be shown what the electorate think of them at the ballot box.

People do care about legal immigration too. It's numbers overall that are putting pressure on this country. Importing people for "care work" is an unsustainable ponzi scheme and needs sorting out. Ironically with RR at the tiller, our reducing economic prospects should stop people being so picky about work that they are perfectly happy for immigrants to do as if they are some sort of sub class.

I am a long standing Labour voter and am v disappointed and angry with recent decisions. Unless there is a massive turn around I will be voting for lib dems or greens in the future. The attack on disabled people and the shameful copying of reform style immigration policies are unforgiveable. They are also stupid decisions. Care workers are much needed.

Getting rid of reeves is a good start

I honestly can't see how taking stuff of pensioners disabled and care workers is a good look for starmer.

Get a penny extra on income tax for those earning over 100k and reinstate those changes.

And his immigration stance does denoting to address the small boats which is the elephant in the room. No one cares about legal immigration. Especially those that actually want to work in our care homes because brits certainly won't.

Labour have lost the plot.

I'm a floating voter. I voted for every party but reform will be in next time. That's definitely happening unless starmer kicks out reeves and does something remarkable.

And I have noticed you are both usually wrong 😉

The problem is Keir Starmer has no real principles of his own. And he won't have written that speech himself. It will have been written by whoever is seeing how the wind is blowing regarding public opinion. Keir will just follow along if he sees votes in it.

Ironically, the only (leading) politician of real consistent conviction is Nigel Farage, no matter if you agree with him or not. Although he's never had power so we can't see if he's a twisty one, as well as all the other politicians recently.