Call to Birmingham to Stand Against Fascism

Kippers have been at it as well:
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/czx0nwl0y81o.amp

Thanks for that.

Fascist, flag-waving imbeciles wave flags. Also, rain wet say scientists.

It's a shame they use the flag, very embarrassing.

Footage of both sides of the event.

Really good post. Having lived in Birmingham for 25 years, and ultimately forced to leave due to the failure of multiculturalism as my lovely suburb became subject to an almost turf war of two different groups of immigrants and local facilities that had stood for decades serving the local community were shut down as that local community was diminishing rapidly. As crime shot through the roof, gangs roamed the lovely local park, new neighbours failed to integrate and only wanted to mix in their own ethnic community rather than the wider community in which they lived. When my son came home from school and said most people in his classes weren’t speaking English. I have first hand experience of the failure of multiculturalism. I was living in the Island of Strangers Starmer talked about.

This is the very real experience of many people. Unfortunately the far right is rising in popularity because for a long time the people with these experiences haven’t been listened to, they have been labelled racists. People who feel their lives have been upended are finding a listening voice in the far right. If people had listened in mainstream politics rather than vilifying people with very real concerns the far right wouldn’t have gotten a foot hold. Now I fear the belated recognition of the failure of multiculturalism by the mainstream parties is too little too late..

I would like to hear from the OP how they want to address people’s very valid concerns over the failure of multiculturalism, or do they still want to bury their head in the sand and claim it’s wonderful, even though I know the vast majority of people in the Birmingham area do have very real concerns, and it’s not just white people who have these concerns. We should have been thinking this since at least the race riots of 2005.

The same thing for EDL (English Defence League). They often make very noisy announcements of big rallies but, when it comes down to it, only a tiny handful of hardliners ever turn up.

No, that's true.

BF don't tend to have very big rallies.

But also terrifying....

Yes I agree with freedom of speech as well

They're probably preparing their banner to protect this great nation and freedom of speech.

Yes, it is confusing but I suppose we will never know if the poster doesn't return!

I'm puzzled. Is the poster saying that the counter protest is like Germany? Are the counter protestors the fascists here? Who is table tipping? Am I faux naive or is the BF supporter?

But if you are going to reference 1933 Germany, it is entirely relevant.

I've known about these nasty bastards since the 1980s. You live long enough you can spot them a mile away however patriotic a name the currently give themselves.

@inkognitha

I am not going to explain my point further, my contribution is over.

That's a shame, it was just getting interesting.

I am not going to explain my point further, my contribution is over.

Facts/honest opinions? Very few and shallow. @Goldenbear you know a thing or two about Germany in the 30s, but they have little to do with what I am saying.

List of shutdown tactics used in this thread (not exhaustive) : Godwin argument, scaremongering, slander, faux concern, group pressure, faux naivety, weaponised intellectual incompetence and table turning.

Without even going into the matter of the argument (racism, BFP, etc.), how can you be surprised people don't trust or like you anymore?

It doesn't matter what the goals are, it feels nasty, domineering and ignorant.

If you would bother to open a book about 1933 Germany, you would know that the Great Depression was the main reason for the Nazis rise to power. Hitler took advantage of the high unemployment rate and weak economy. He also had the support of a media Tycoon, Hugenburg, who helped to spread his propaganda.

Does anyone of this sound familiar.

@inkognitha

if one day you bother to open a book about how it started in Germany in 1933 ...

What do you mean by this?

Never said anywhere I am supporting them, I have just been asking why they were called "fascists", because that's an easy cop out, a Goodwin argument to shut the debate. They are a lot of things I don't like (I read their website, all it takes), and I truly wish some of you would have pointed these things out so we could have had a real debate.

The lack of reasoning and critical thinking, the groupthink, the hounding and pressure, the disregard for democracy (because, like it or not, the BFP is recognised by the electoral commission, they have every right to take part to the political debate) and free expression, the clear intent to loudly occupy the streets at any opportunity (Gaza marches) and quash dissent (counter-protests like this one and for TR marches), not respecting the rule of the law by organising into self-defense groups (the riots), well, if one day you bother to open a book about how it started in Germany in 1933 ... you could see similarities.

It's not because intentions are good (and I am sure they are) that it is ok to go so low.

I couldn’t have politics further from Britain First, and wish nothing but failure on them, but as someone who regularly sees women described as “fascists” simply for asserting that sex is real, immutable and matters in some situations, I share the scepticism of @inkognitha at the word being bandied around just because you don’t like what they stand for.

Opendemocracy.net’s opinion is that they are not fascist, as they do not meet key criteria for that label.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/mythbusting-britain-first-5-things-you-need-to-know/

Also, the idea that the correct way round is to call someone a fascist and then anyone who disagrees has to prove they aren’t would certainly raise some eyebrows in a defamation hearing where “truth” is an absolute defence, but it is for the person accused of defamation to prove it is true.

If we throw the label “fascist” around without truly understanding what it means, we undermine our ability to identify and combat actual fascists.

Again, I wish nothing but failure on Britain First.

I was wondering the same thing. If our suspicions are correct and they do support fascist groups, they really need to tell us why they take that line.

But didn't the OP and others make it clear? And the Op said this "They are quite simply, by every reasonable measure, a hate group who follow neo-fascist ideologies. That's neo-fascist, not old school fascist, as they do not - to the best of my knowledge - also believe the democratic state should be dismantled."

Yet you continue to double-down on the attitude 'they are not fascists because they are not actual German Nazis' without actually bothering to read or, what's much more embarrassing for you, understand what's been said to you.

It seems more and more to us as though you are pro-Britain First, but have enough intelligence to know that position cannot be defended.
Like I said before, I think we all have the measure of you.