Musk buoys up Nazis

Musk is a dick, but the world isn't ending whether he meant it as a nazi salute or not.

I'm not criticising parties not working with AfD. I'm pointing out that Germany is a long way from being fascist.

The anti-Israel marches are uncomfortable for any Jews who don't want to publicly renounce Israel (and why should they? They are entitled to their own political opinion. And entitled to walk anywhere in their city, regardless of ethnicity/religion and regardless of political views). One Jewish activist who was drawing attention to this problem was actually told by police to move away. He was the one causing trouble, you see, by being 'visibly Jewish'.

I consider the Left to be significantly more problematic than the Right, yes.

And so bloody self-righteous that they are incapable of even thinking about their own despotic tendancies.

You can't yet put me in the gulag for wrong-think. So I'll happily point out your hypocrisy.

Where have “The Left” turned into “no-go zones” for Jewish people in London?

And this statement is hilarious when you then go on to mock people taking issue with Musk doing a Nazi salute. (Something which far right groups in the USA seem to seem as a Nazi salute

https://www.splcenter.org/resources/hate-watch/elon-musks-inaugural-roman-salute-sparks-outrage-far-right-praise/)

The same Mask who has retweeted anti-semitic tweets.

Saying anti-semitism is an issue while defending Musk is quite a choice. As is criticising people for not wishing to work with Far Right parties.

Your alleged concern is fairly hollow. You just find this a convenient stick to beat “The Left” with (as if being Jewish and left-wing and mutually exclusive.)

It was a Nazi salute, done twice. We are discussing Elon but nicely done with the whataboutery. Don’t try to tell me what I think about anything, although tbf it does seem to align with the fascist playbook. How ironic that you are raising the issue of antisemitism. Off you goose step.

I think the Left turning parts of London into a no-go zone for British Jews every Saturday is far closer to what we actually want to avoid repeating than:

... the press getting hysterical about a gesture which a billionaire may or may not have intended.

...Or even a fairly unpleasant party getting 20% of the vote... but all the other parties continuing to refuse to enter a coalition with them.

"History doesn't repeat itself but sometimes it rhymes."

But you're looking at the surface similarities which resonate with your own political preferences - and getting caught up in Left-wing drama and hyperbole - whilst ignoring the genuine similarity: rising anti-semitism.

You're ignoring harm from the Left because you assume that only flowers and unicorns come from the Left. But history shows that is far from the truth.

I obviously mean the current rise of fascism. See, I find Nazi salutes and Musk trying to influence elections in multiple countries unhealthy 🤷🏻‍♀️. Have you ever been to Berlin, they honour their difficult past beautifully. The sunken library and the Neue Wache are poignant and moving - this exists alongside a buzzing foreword looking community. It’s possible to both acknowledge and recognise a historical past that you don’t want to go back to whilst simultaneously be happy and thriving. It’s not about guilt as Elon is trying to frame it, it’s about honour.

It’s not about ‘guilt’ although some like to
put it that way.

It is about remembering history and recognising the ways in which what went before now impacts the society we live in today. And recognising the ways in which descendants of those past generations who experienced genocide might still be affected by it.

No one is asking anyone of later generations of Germans, British, Americans, Australians etc to feel guilty. But it’s often couched in those terms by people who somehow feel like they are the victims of what their ancestors perpetuated.

Because one country does not remember it’s history does not make it okay for another country to do likewise. That’s aiming for the lowest bar.

As for Musk, I read that his grandparents were nazi party members in Canada who, after WW2, moved to apartheid South Africa. In 1992, with apartheid in the process of coming to an end in South Africa, Musk moves to the US.

The people I know are sad and shocked how an advanced society could gradually descend to allow this kind of barbarism again.

What do you mean?

I don't know a single German born after WWII that feels guilty about what happened

Have you ever asked them whether they are proud to be German? Ask them, and watch their reaction.

I've done that previously (quite a while ago, when Merkel was still Chancellor, well before any recent political changes) I could actually see the person physically recoil. They explained that expressing pride for Germany was completely culturally unacceptable.

Even though I knew they were proud of Germany, in the perfectly natural, non-nationalistic way most people are (of pretty much any country). They knew their country's unique strengths as one of the economic and political leaders of the EU. They felt lucky to be citizens of a strong, liberal democracy.

But saying it was completely taboo. I don't think that's healthy.

I don't know a single German born after WWII that feels guilty about what happened. All the Germans I know understand they cannot be held responsible for the actions of their great-grandparents.

What they do feel is purpose - the purpose of ensuring that the world never forgets what happened in their country so that it may never happen again. The people I know are sad and shocked how an advanced society could gradually descend to allow this kind of barbarism again.

But this guilt myth is often pushed by those who'd rather ignore their history because it can feel very uncomfortable when the parallels become too obvious

Yes. My contribution matches the level of debate you are engaging in.

”MISogYNiSt”

Sure Jan!

Do you actually have any thoughts to contribute?

Or are you just enjoying making youself feel clever?

Yep, misogynistic. Trying to bully women into not speaking up. Did you really not realise that's the dynamic of those insults?

I suppose you haven't thought about it.

“Misogynostic”

LOL! Sure Jan

Ooh, I think that's the first time I've actually been called a misogynistic, passive-aggressive, womens-name put-down, intended to put me in my place (obviously inferior to right-thinking you)!

I guess it's a common enough way of trying to shut up opinions people find uncomfortable that it was always going to happen.

I'm genuinely not sure what you disagree with in my comment.

Atrocities from hard left and hard right? There are so many on both sides that this would surprise me. Sooo many communist atrocities from Stalin starving Ukraine, the destruction of the Aral sea, the Cultural revolution. Many millions of people dead.

Zeitgeist moving right? I mean, look at election results internationally. Listen to what people in the UK are saying too.

The antisemitism of the Left? If you're questioning that then I imagine that's because you've either completely drunk the Left-wing cool aid, or you are anti-semitic yourself and so just can't see it. Possibly both. Maybe even going on terrorist-apologist marches. I can't help you if that's the case.

LOL!

Sure Jan.

The International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg beg to differ.

The Poles etc. being murdered was a war crime when they were prisoners.

The holocaust was not a war crime

we should not look at Musk's actual words... We should instead try to guess his intent - which I imagine...

Ooh, yes! Let's just invent whatever we like!

Then we can choose something really emotionally manipulative and act as if it's actually true!

Hard Left and Hard Right have both committed atrocities in the past.
.
The zeitgeist seems to be moving Right just now, with hardening attitudes towards immigration and nationalism everywhere. But the Left is no better: they are encouraging anti-semitism, which has the highest risk of repeating the past.

It's a time of increasing populism and polarization.

It's a perfect storm at the moment and has been building for a long time.

It's interesting how far right groups are trying to distance themselves from the past. They're distancing themselves from 'far right' saying it's meaningless and from past atrocities associated with the far right.

The AfD obviously don't need convincing but voters do.

If it was about stopping the horrors from the past happening again @howardtjmoon then the slavery reparations lot would put their efforts into stopping modern day slavery. Instead, they're trying to extract money for crimes committed to other people long dead - by other people long dead.

I don't know whether you've ever spoken to Germans about their sense of historic guilt for WW2. It really is extreme and not justified or healthy now.

After WW2, there was a comprehensive and frankly brutal de-natzification process. It was necessary and very effective - and I think contributed hugely to Germany moving on from WW2 and becoming the power at the heart of Europe that it is today.

But I think the mindset from that process has remained. And 80 years later, it's time for Germany to move on. The great-grandchildren of the perpetrators shouldn't be holding guilt. They're no different - certainly not more likely to repeat the past - than the great grandchildren of the victims.

There's a big difference between a) placing blame on today's generation for the horrors perpetrated by previous generations, and b) recognising that those horrors happened and so preventing them from being erased from history books. Historical revisionism helps no-one other than those who would be ok with those horrors happening again.