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Politics

Anyone feeling slightly uncomfortable with the scale of the sentencing after the riots?

362 replies

TiredWife · 14/08/2024 17:51

Firstly, in no way do I support the disgusting, racist behaviour we've seen over the last couple of weeks, and I fully believe the major perpetrators need to be found and punished.

Given his background Starmer has obviously been able to pull lots of strings to process a huge volume of offenders through the courts, and there is clearly a directive to name and shame in the media to send the clear message that this sort of behaviour will not be tolerated. All good, and in the past I would have been firmly in support of this.

However there's something about the scale and speed of the court response which is making me uncomfortable. It feels as if they are highlighting specific cases to 'send a message' and it doesn't seem consistent with how the police and courts have handled previous similar cases.

So for instance an 18 year old has just been sentenced to 26 weeks in a young offender institution for 'possession of a bladed article in a public place'. I live near a London suburb and I reckon about a third of men out on the streets on a Saturday night would fall foul of this! But the police seem reluctant to stop them, let alone charge them?

Similarly the 53 year old woman, first offender, jailed for 15 months over Facebook hate post. Again, I don't condone what she did, but when you look at all the hate that women get online, or the death threats sent to JKR or MPs, there are few instances of people being jailed in the same way?

Justice needs to be applied fairly and consistently, across all groups, but this feels like a response at a level which cannot be maintained/applied across the board? Is that fair?

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AngelusBell · 14/08/2024 22:01

TheHouseElf · 14/08/2024 18:30

I am really disturbed to see that a young autistic lad, with learning difficulties, has been sent to prison. Yes, he should be punished for his part it rioting and the destruction he was responsible for, but who is it actually serving to send such a vulnerable person, as he undoubtedly is, to prison. Surely some other form of punishment could have been decided for him.

I have worked with autistic people for over two decades and I have always explained to them how the law works and what is considered a crime, precisely because of the number of autistic people in the criminal justice system. The Southport attacker is also autistic. Harold Shipman was autistic.

The vast majority of autistic people are more likely to be victims than perpetrators of crimes, but I have made it part of my mission in life to keep autistic young people out of the criminal justice system as much as possible.

Schools do no favours by excusing criminal behaviour on the grounds that the student is neurodivergent, because that is not going to be a defence in court. Yes, I do feel very sorry for this young man and I think we need to recognise that autistic young people are more vulnerable to radicalisation than their neurotypical peers. It needs to be considered as part of education moving forward after the riots.

mcmooberry · 14/08/2024 22:01

Am less uncomfortable and more gobsmacked as the wheels of justice seem to turn so slowly elsewhere and yet suddenly people are being tried and sentenced in days! It's actually quite impressive, if a bit alarming.

BIossomtoes · 14/08/2024 22:00

TheNoonBell · 14/08/2024 21:59

This country is genuinely scary at the moment. Having grown up on the other side of the Iron Curtain I am getting major flashbacks to my childhood where saying the wrong thing would get you disappeared.

Inciting violence here gets you sent to prison. The two aren’t remotely comparable.

DickEmery · 14/08/2024 22:00

Bullshit

TheNoonBell · 14/08/2024 21:59

This country is genuinely scary at the moment. Having grown up on the other side of the Iron Curtain I am getting major flashbacks to my childhood where saying the wrong thing would get you disappeared.

Icanttakethisanymore · 14/08/2024 21:58

itsgettingweird · 14/08/2024 21:37

I do agree with you in that the msm has to take some personal responsibility for what they print - as it does whip up these kinds of feelings.

There was a fantastic programme on R4 earlier about it. On at about 4pm if you can catch it on bbc sounds.

Thanks - I’ll look it up.

Ted27 · 14/08/2024 21:57

@perfectstorm

Should that not also apply to the 10 year olds who murdered James Bulger?

Ted27 · 14/08/2024 21:54

@Paul2023

Ricky Jones did not enter a plea and his case is going to Crown Court which is where more serious cases are dealt with. If convicted he will be sentenced in line with current sentencing guidelines.

The ones being dealt with swiftly are pleading guilty and going before Magistrates so it's a quicker process

cherrytree12345 · 14/08/2024 21:50

Absolutely agree those looting etc should be punished and the government is saying prison is a deterrent- but only recently prisoners were being released early as the prisons are overcrowded. Criminals that commit (in my opinion) awful crimes are given suspended sentences or community type orders. People who have been victims of serious crimes are waiting years for their cases to be heard, whilst these cases jump the queue. Its all political nothing to do with justice.

Edingril · 14/08/2024 21:48

It's simple make these tougher sentences the norm not the other way round

perfectstorm · 14/08/2024 21:47

Lucytheloose · 14/08/2024 21:44

The minimum age for criminal responsibility is ten. When do you think people should be criminally liable for their actions? Thirty maybe?

That's much lower than most of the civilised world, and seen as insane elsewhere. If you're below the age where you can ever be deemed to consent to sex, because we all agree that prior to 13 it is impossible for you to truly understand what you are consenting to, then the contradiction should be obvious.

Of course kids who commit crimes need intervention. But pretending they know what they're doing in the same way a 17 year old might is just barking.

Paul2023 · 14/08/2024 21:45

Mespher · 14/08/2024 21:43

Likewise the Tory councillors wife who wrote stuff on SM.

Yes I meant why do they have to wait for so long for their cases ? Was it because they pleaded not guilty ? I don’t understand why others were sentenced so quickly?

Is it likely the Labour councillor will go to prison ?

perfectstorm · 14/08/2024 21:45

NancyJoan · 14/08/2024 21:40

During the riots in London after Mark Duggan was killed, a woman was jailed for 6 months for stealing £3:50 worth of bottled water.

Violent disorder and inciting racial hatred deserves tough sentencing. I firming believe that crimes of a sexual nature should carry higher sentences than they do, but I also think that stirring up crowds and encouraging people to fire bomb a refugee hostel is equally evil and abhorrent.

I think the people doing it should have to do a brief sentence followed by a long one of community service. Jail is pointless unless someone poses a threat of some kind when out, because it's like smacking kids - they don't get caught as easily next time, but while they're angry and resentful, they're not actually considering why what they did was wrong, either. I doubt many of these people will feel gosh, what I did was so bad... and they will be martyrs to the knuckle-draggers now, to boot. It costs an obscene amount of money and achieves little, if the person isn't violent. Get criminals to actually clear up graffiti, or rubbish, or weed parks. Do something constructive. And also much less martyr-creating.

Lucytheloose · 14/08/2024 21:44

Noname99 · 14/08/2024 18:05

It’s fucking outrageous. A 13 year old girl and two 12 year old boys have been charged but all the fawning labour supporters on here are defending it because their lord and master can do no wrong. It’s absolutely horrifying

The minimum age for criminal responsibility is ten. When do you think people should be criminally liable for their actions? Thirty maybe?

Ted27 · 14/08/2024 21:44

@ElleintheWoods

Great post.

I don't live in an affected area but the library that was torched was the library of my childhood and my family are all close by.
I was however in 6th form at the time of the 1981 Toxteth riots. I had to go though that area on the way to school and remember very well the devastation and smell of smouldering buildings. Not something I ever wanted to see again

AngelusBell · 14/08/2024 21:44

Wishitsnows · 14/08/2024 18:20

It shows that they can put on night courts and get things processed incredibly quickly. It would be great if they could do the same for rape cases for example instead of leaving victims waiting years for their case to be heard in court.

It’s easier to gather evidence when people post publicly on social media or there is clear footage of them committing crimes - that isn’t usually the case with rape.

pinacollateral · 14/08/2024 21:43

TiredWife · 14/08/2024 18:22

I think maybe this is the point I was trying to make. Sex offenders and violent men seem to walk away with minimum sentences compared with 15 months for a social media post?

I'd like this sort of justice to be served across the board, but of course it won't be.

So what's your solution, given the issues with resources in our legal system and prisons?

Should they not have been sentenced because there are failings elsewhere? Just let them off because others get off?

They needed to send a message and in this instance, they did. Yes, of course things need improving across the board. But despite that, I'm glad they've dealt with this quickly and firmly.

Mespher · 14/08/2024 21:43

Paul2023 · 14/08/2024 21:40

Isnt he due in court next month? Was he remanded in custody? Also why is his court date so far away when the ‘rioters‘went straight to court?

Likewise the Tory councillors wife who wrote stuff on SM.

perfectstorm · 14/08/2024 21:42

Nadeed · 14/08/2024 21:32

She openly incited people to burn a named building that would kill people. Do you see other people doing that? I don't.

Sadly it's rather common online.

Lots of women get rape threats from men with identifiable accounts and nothing is done.

15 months is a very long time. Think about it - stop and imagine serving 7 to 8 months, 220 or so days, in a prison. We don't send men to jail that long if they punch their partners in the face, sadly. This is a long sentence.

These riots are disgusting, racist, scary and awful. That doesn't mean we should lose sight of what it is to have a civilised moral compass, which also means not jailing people if we can rehabilitate and deter more sensibly. Countries who aggressively jail for excessive lengths of time tend to be more violent than those that don't.

A week in prison to make a point - a horrible experience for any average person - followed by unpleasant community service - litter picking, or cleaning public buildings - would be more useful, more appropriate, cost less for the state, do something positive and leave jail cells for people who are a danger. And if a local mosque were prepared to have her come in to actually understand she was talking about human beings (not saying they owe that to anyone at all, and it would have to be at their freely given agreement) then she might herself appreciate quite how hideous what she was saying was. I doubt she's ever got to know anyone Muslim, so to her it's like a computer avatar. Addressing that would do more for us all than wasting a significant jail sentence on an idiot.

MrsKeats · 14/08/2024 21:41

No as I think it's stopped it happening again over the last few weekends.

AngelusBell · 14/08/2024 21:41

Iforgotagain · 14/08/2024 18:17

I don't disagree with the sentencing but it seems insane to me that people can kill people (manslaughter) and walk free, like drunk drivers (killed my SIL) or the man who punched and killed his sister, how can that not be deserving of a custodiaI sentence? I really feel that victims of violent crimes are massively failed by our justice system, especially crimes against women and children.

I agree, sorry for your loss and there should be far harsher sentences for drunk drivers. Drug driving too.

NancyJoan · 14/08/2024 21:40

During the riots in London after Mark Duggan was killed, a woman was jailed for 6 months for stealing £3:50 worth of bottled water.

Violent disorder and inciting racial hatred deserves tough sentencing. I firming believe that crimes of a sexual nature should carry higher sentences than they do, but I also think that stirring up crowds and encouraging people to fire bomb a refugee hostel is equally evil and abhorrent.

Paul2023 · 14/08/2024 21:40

Livelovebehappy · 14/08/2024 21:38

As I said upthread, a Labour councillor incited a huge crowd to cut the throats of the rioters a few days ago. Should he get a lengthy prison sentence? Interested to see if consistency applies here.

Isnt he due in court next month? Was he remanded in custody? Also why is his court date so far away when the ‘rioters‘went straight to court?

AngelusBell · 14/08/2024 21:39

Paul2023 · 14/08/2024 21:30

She made a ridiculous comment on Facebook!

Do you think everyone who says something unpleasant on Facebook goes to jail ? Is this really justified on balance ?

Inciting murder is a serious crime, so on balance, yes, I’ve never called for anyone to be killed on Facebook. Have you?

Paul2023 · 14/08/2024 21:38

ElleintheWoods · 14/08/2024 21:35

This isn’t just about the specific acts or stealing, not about a Facebook post or a pair of crocs.

This particular group of crimes in this instance are a part of an organised effort to cause and be a part of violent disorder on our streets. Social media was used to organise and incite, and the rioting was the executive action following the digitally given orders.

Think about an organised crime case where someone orders someone else to be murdered. Should it just be the murderer going down, or should the architect of the murder be punished more severely?

One of the main functions of government is to protect order, peace, safety within its territory. The August riots caused major social disorder, damage of property and lives were at stake. People regardless of background were terrified to enter town centres/ go about their daily business.

If Britain would allow a climate where this isn’t swiftly dealt with, inciting riots online is ok and mass unrest with violence and property damage is not harshly punished, something like this can escalate into civil war/ overthrowing of government, with 1000s of random innocent people affected.

Thus those factors made those crimes of higher significance.

Stealing from shops, breaking a window, beating someone, arson as an isolated incident is serious. This happening in a highly coordinated series of riots is much more serious in terms of how it could affect the wider general public and their safety in GB. The great purge is a bigger threat to general everyday law and order in society.

Raise your hand if you avoided locations where there was rumoured to be trouble last week, or worried about the safety of your loved ones. Or genuinely worried about more violent mobs and clashes coming nearer to where you live.

Someone breaking the window of Greggs as a one-off and without social media amplification probably wouldn’t make you feel the same way.

Yes that all makes perfect sense.

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