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Politics

Anyone feeling slightly uncomfortable with the scale of the sentencing after the riots?

362 replies

TiredWife · 14/08/2024 17:51

Firstly, in no way do I support the disgusting, racist behaviour we've seen over the last couple of weeks, and I fully believe the major perpetrators need to be found and punished.

Given his background Starmer has obviously been able to pull lots of strings to process a huge volume of offenders through the courts, and there is clearly a directive to name and shame in the media to send the clear message that this sort of behaviour will not be tolerated. All good, and in the past I would have been firmly in support of this.

However there's something about the scale and speed of the court response which is making me uncomfortable. It feels as if they are highlighting specific cases to 'send a message' and it doesn't seem consistent with how the police and courts have handled previous similar cases.

So for instance an 18 year old has just been sentenced to 26 weeks in a young offender institution for 'possession of a bladed article in a public place'. I live near a London suburb and I reckon about a third of men out on the streets on a Saturday night would fall foul of this! But the police seem reluctant to stop them, let alone charge them?

Similarly the 53 year old woman, first offender, jailed for 15 months over Facebook hate post. Again, I don't condone what she did, but when you look at all the hate that women get online, or the death threats sent to JKR or MPs, there are few instances of people being jailed in the same way?

Justice needs to be applied fairly and consistently, across all groups, but this feels like a response at a level which cannot be maintained/applied across the board? Is that fair?

OP posts:
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Fluffyhoglets · 14/08/2024 19:40

It's what happened in 2011. It's to deter people thinking rioting is in any way acceptable or minor. The potential impact of that sort of disruption spreading undeterred is scary.
The numpties caught on camera have obviously been advised a guilty plea is their best bet of the shortest possible sentence.

Mumsgirls · 14/08/2024 19:39

No they got what they deserved. My 91 year old mother lives on those Southport streets. She is very distressed for the poor children killed and their families. Bins were set on fire, yobs were rampaging and neighbour’s car badly damaged. Poor Mum was terrified, luckily not alone. The criminals were taught some manners and hopefully will no be able to get reduced terms.

TheNuthatch · 14/08/2024 19:38

Thewildthingsarewithme · 14/08/2024 19:06

If I don’t use a yard stick I think great sends a nice clear message. If I compare it to the sentences handed down for rape, possession of child sexual abuse images and domestic battery I just feel furious, tells us all we need to know about the importance of women and children in our society

This!
And I wonder who they've let out early to accommodate the rioters!

Noname99 · 14/08/2024 19:38

Fiorentina9 · 14/08/2024 19:09

I find it weird how the Left are suddenly so keen on imprisoning people, even children, when for years they were insisting that the prison system doesn't work.

indeed

Ted27 · 14/08/2024 19:34

For those of you worried about the poor children you might like to read the following. They are most likely to end up with probation. They aren't being hauled off to prison.

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/overarching-guides/magistrates-court/item/sentencing-children-and-young-people/

Sentencing Children and Young People – Sentencing

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/overarching-guides/magistrates-court/item/sentencing-children-and-young-people

Kornvallmo · 14/08/2024 19:29

"...we're very wedded in the west to the idea of free speech but there are other ways to build a society and maybe it's worth trying?..."
@otnot

Err...what the actual fuck?
No!
(It's been tried before, by the way.)

Sitdownrosa · 14/08/2024 19:26

Noname99 · 14/08/2024 18:32

@Sirzy @LilacQuoter

They are children. No one is saying there shouldn’t be consequences but being charged and taken to court within days within no time for any thought, care or time to look at their circumstances and how those children came to be involved or their background is absolutely inhuman and would be rightly condemned in any other circumstances. No one is condoning the riots but that doesn’t excuse 20 years plus years of research and understanding into the impact on young people being swallowed up by the criminal justice system being thrown away to the virtue signally left. The same people who were applauding the appointment of James Timpson are now delighted that a 13 year girl has been arrested and convicted within days

I’m so unbelievably angry

No mention of how terrified the vulnerable people inside the hotel that she was attacking must have been.

easylikeasundaymorn · 14/08/2024 19:25

pipindressup · 14/08/2024 18:04

It sends out a nice clear message that this kind of behaviour will not be tolerated.
To be honest I have been impressed by this.
They got what they deserved.
Where they got the prison space I do not know.

see I don't agree, either that the message is clear, or that the behaviour won't be tolerated. There's a thread running on MN atm about absolutely blatant, constant, shoplifting with nothing being done about it, ever, staff not even reacting, police not even attending let alone bringing cases to court.

So the message being sent is 'shoplifting is normally so accepted we won't even bother chasing you even if you steal alcohol worth £100 twice a week, every week, unless you do it in certain circumstances and then we will send you to prison for 18 months for stealing a sausage roll, having never stolen anything before.' It's completely inconsistent, confusing, and (although I'm hardly crying a river for anyone prosecuted), unfair.

The majority of people in the riots would have been identified via video evidence - either the shop owned cctv or individuals filming - both of which would be available in 'normal' shoplifting cases so there's no reason why the same can't be done.

TokyoSushi · 14/08/2024 19:24

It's a tricky one, I think that it's been good, and swift, but it's not consistent and therefore seems disproportionate. Yes they're clamping down hard, in this area, good, but the vast majority of 'other crime' and often nothing happens.

So at the moment, post something inflammatory on social media, prison, grope a woman on a train, nothing...

CurlewKate · 14/08/2024 19:23

The quick sentencing was only for people who pleaded guilty. A point that seems to be being forgotten.

selfesteemfan · 14/08/2024 19:22

No I don't feel uncomfortable at all. They deserve every second inside they get.

They're nothing but racist rioting-burn-their-own-towns-down twats.

Conniebygaslight · 14/08/2024 19:22

GoTigers · 14/08/2024 18:09

@LiterallyOnFire I CSA cases need longer sentences.

I don’t think the rioters deserved shorted sentences.

This ^
The govt had to act quickly a harshly….right sentences for rioters imo.

Fiorentina9 · 14/08/2024 19:22

SnapdragonToadflax · 14/08/2024 19:13

They are sending a message, to stop people rioting. These sentences act as a deterrent to people who either weren't caught and fancy doing it again, or think it looked fun and were planning to have a go themselves.

The sentences are high because there's so much at stake. The government can't have rioting like that becoming the norm.

I don't generally agree with long prison sentences for minor crimes, but in the wider context these needed to be punitive. And it seems to have worked...

It's not the fact that the rioters are being deservedly punished. The problem is the double standards. It would be fine if the PM also referred to "Left-wing thugs" during the anti-semitic marches in London that terrorised Jews on their own streets. Or "Islamist thugs" for those committing Islamic State attacks. Have you ever heard a Labour MP use phrases like this?

Spirallingdownwards · 14/08/2024 19:22

No completely comfortable that they are getting what they deserve and swiftly!

HappydaysArehere · 14/08/2024 19:21

AgnesX · 14/08/2024 18:04

Not remotely, serves them right. Hopefully it'll put the skids under some of the malicious shite spouted on social media and the other idiots that think participating in a riot is clever.

Edited

Agree with this. It was absolutely necessary to stop this terrible thuggery in its tracks. It was shock tactics. Starmer said they would be met with the full force of the law and this is what has happened. Anarchy cannot be compared with other lesser crimes and the subsequent sentences.

Fiorentina9 · 14/08/2024 19:18

If people are going to prison for Facebook posts, I wonder how many years the pro-Palestine supporters got who displayed blatantly anti-semitic placards, and how swiftly they were sentenced.

Prawncow · 14/08/2024 19:15

It’s so mad to see people posting about ‘the left’ wanting these sentences. Find me a Conservative who wants rioters sent home with a pat on the head! These people set fire to private property, threw missiles at the police and caused chaos.

The only people making sympathetic noises are populist idiots who seem to think that it’s not rioting if they agree with the cause!

SnapdragonToadflax · 14/08/2024 19:13

They are sending a message, to stop people rioting. These sentences act as a deterrent to people who either weren't caught and fancy doing it again, or think it looked fun and were planning to have a go themselves.

The sentences are high because there's so much at stake. The government can't have rioting like that becoming the norm.

I don't generally agree with long prison sentences for minor crimes, but in the wider context these needed to be punitive. And it seems to have worked...

johnson39 · 14/08/2024 19:11

GoTigers · 14/08/2024 18:06

I think the government have played an absolute blinder.

Minimal police reaction to the riots, get the bastards nicked, charged and in court ASAP. Name and shame them, release their deserved sentences and watch their mates crawl back to their sewers.

Very well handled.

I couldn't agree more ! Well said 😊 will make people think twice before doing it again.

Fiorentina9 · 14/08/2024 19:11

DadJoke · 14/08/2024 18:08

Those who have been sentenced pled guilty. 70% had previous convictions, some of them for multiple crimes. There sentences pale in comparison with the Just Stop Oil protestors. High sentences for organising and participating in hate-fuelled violent riots is good public policy.

We'll see what happens in those cases which go to trial.

But many of the Just Stop Oil protestors waited years before their sentences were given.

FumingTRex · 14/08/2024 19:10

I completely disagree with you OP. The woman on Facebook that you mention. She was encouraging people in her local community to blow up a mosque had already been attacked by rioters. How do you think the people attending thst mosque felt? They are probably still scared to go there . she absolutely deserved it.

As for the 12 and 13 year olds, a conviction might get them the help they need before they stuff up their entire lives.

Fiorentina9 · 14/08/2024 19:09

I find it weird how the Left are suddenly so keen on imprisoning people, even children, when for years they were insisting that the prison system doesn't work.

feellikeanalien · 14/08/2024 19:08

I don't disagree with the sentencing. As others have said it was the same in 2011. I just wonder when all those men who make death and rape threats to women online are going to be arrested and charged.

otnot · 14/08/2024 19:08

Starmer is only new so it's not really fair to blame him for the ridiculously lenient sentences that have been handed out over the past few years (though we can of course blame him for releasing a load of violent criminals in order to lock this lot up.) It will be very interesting to see if he continues this tough on crime approach, especially when it comes to gangs or attacks against women or children. I certainly hope so, not least because I think it will cause an awful lot of anger if he goes back to letting rapists and paedophiles walk free. But I suppose he'll just lock up anyone who complains about that too, so it's probably not much of a concern for him.

It is feeling a bit Chinese, Russian etc where dissenters are packed off to 're-education camps', but to be frank I think an awful lot of people who very much like the idea of that - presumably so long as it's not them or theirs being targeted. And maybe that is the best way to build a peaceful, prosperous nation; we're very wedded in the west to the idea of free speech but there are other ways to build a society and maybe it's worth trying? Personally, I'd prefer to see him talking about addressing people's grievances and moving people away from the extremes with positive change rather than locking them up, but I'm not sure that's likely.

Dorisbonson · 14/08/2024 19:07

EmeraldRoulette · 14/08/2024 19:02

@Dorisbonson ”Whilst law and order needs to be maintained, it's hard to respect a government which rapidly mobilises police response for one type of crime but not another.”

rioting shuts down everything quite quickly. What would you have done to curb it?

I don't think I would have done much differently for the maintenance of public order (perhaps water cannon but I'm not am expert on the science and impact).

My main point is I am keen to see similarly effective policing for other crimes and application of similar levels of resource for other crimes such as the ones mentioned by others.

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