Money is pouring in for Kamala Harris as U.S. presidential candidate

I'd rather the church (whichever church) keeps the hell out of my and my kids' sex lives, thanks. That mix has been shown to be pretty damn awful. Alongside my unbelief in any God, I also oppose organised religion of any kind. I'm glad my (adult) children are for the most part as irreligious as I am. (One is engaged to a pagan. Paganism I can live with).

I notice you didn't address the question I asked you last night - what would you do if your daughters turned out to be gay? Mine are.

I don't keep track of all the laws in the 50 different states. I do post attention to the federal government and my home state of Kansas. Overturning Roe v Wade was a good thing, because the original case relied on due process to grant abortion this, which was terrible to begin with... But also our constitution reserves rights to the individual states and people that aren't expressed in the US Constitution. It's part if what makes America unique and good. That each group of people (that are different from one another) can decide for themselves what laws they want to have based on their values and beliefs. As for Kansas, we're a very conservative state, and even we decided to protect abortion rights... Your idea that I should pay attention to the world find good ideas with the same way with 50 state governments cooking up with unique ways to solve problems in their states, and when something works well in Tennessee, then we can implement it here in Kansas. But we are a nation built on freedom, so it has never gone over week when one person or party tries to try everyone else what to do.

After you challenged my opinion on global abortion data, I went and looked, and the data I found showed nations who kept abortion illegal with some of the lowest abortion rates. I didn't trust that data because you guys told me the data you're looking at said something different. So I've been asking for where you're getting your information from, so I might learn from it as well.

I'm up for a good back and forth on the Internet otherwise I wouldn't be in here with you ladies... But there is no way I'm falling into your trap of about men v women. I'll just take your comment about me being a man, and agree with you. Women are way better! 😉

Abstinence education in school is ineffective. Abstinence education in the church is very effective.

I didn't ban it. I'm not in favor of banning it. For the 8th or 9th time (I've lost count)...I think it's overused and should have reasonable limitations, which I've also explained 3 or 4 times as well. Not blaming you here btw. Multiple conversations in a forum can get messy.

That's the name given to them by the media and on the Internet. And there certainly are folks out there who can themselves Christians who didn't follow Jesus. People label and people lie... What else is new?

Because we are the wealthiest nation in the world, with a lot of great technology (that was invented here), and if any nation should be able to get it right, it is the US... But we don't, and then I look at the lists I've found, and... Like I said... The nations listed at the top have kept abortion illegal, so that data simultaneously seems suspect and at odds with what you told me.

Also, I asked for the links because I'm taking your advice and asking for the information that informed your opinion, so I might learn something new. Something you know that I don't.

This is a conversation in a political thread on the Internet. Do you think what someone puts on the Internet is all that defines them.as a person? I don't. Regardless of our disagreement, I know there is much more to you than a few sentences on mumsnet... Probably a lot of it we have in common and agree on.

For example, some of my other views... I do think something needs to be done to ensure the that the wealthy continue more to reduce the deficit here in the US, particularly for social security. I also had a soldier that worked for me at my last duty station who had to take have to bring his family to the US because drug cartels threatened their lives. More broadly, drug addiction in the US has destabilized a lot of Central America, and we are responsible for that. So the migrants displaced because of how our addictions have displaced this families means we owe it to them to become citizens of this nation.

We didn't discuss those other issues because all of us collectively went down the abortion rabbit hole. Myself included!

So don't think that is all there is to me, and while I do believe there is a stronger moral component to abortion than those other issues...I am not certainly not picking and choosing which parts of the Bible I choose to follow or ignore.

I think we can safely say Wabash has no interest in other people’s views, despite his claims (and yes @pointythings notice it’s a man….)

At what point does hyjacking a thread to this extent become trolling? @MNHQ? it’s impossible to discuss anything else.

@Wabash6503 do you approve of the laws which have been implemented in the US in many states following the fall of Roe vs Wade? You know, the laws that forced a pregnant 10 year old to travel to a neighbouring state? The laws that put the lives of women with non-viable pregnancies at risk? Do you approve of the attempts by Republican legislators to ban the MAP?

Why is it that you refuse to accept there is good data on abortions and how you reduce the number? It is precisely those countries where abortion levels are low and abortion is legal (progressive Western democratic countries) where you find the data showing which policies work. I agree that the data from countries where abortion is illegal will be unreliable - for those countries it's better to look at female mortality rates, because as you know, making abortion illegal kills women.

I've just noticed you're a man - that explains a lot.

But Christians like you limit abortion by banning it - which doesn't work. They refuse to look at places where abortion rates are very low and advocate for replicating the policies that make it low. They don't seem to want excellent healthcare, a good social safety net, high quality sex education (which has been shown to increase the age at which young people first have sex, as opposed to abstinence education which is ineffective). Why do Christians go for prohibition rather than proven policies? Control of women's bodies is the answer.

Too right. And yet they hold the name evangelical in America. 🤔

People have already sent links. Why should US have some of the best data in the world? Maybe try and get out more. The world is far bigger and brighter than just America. Many countries do things better.

If you're focusing on abortion then you're picking and choosing.

Also, to be clear what I said was the data is bad. Even in the US, which should have some of the best data on the world, CA intentionally doesn't report any abortions. And then nations where abortion is illegal are listed with some of the lowest rates... Also not believing that data. Send me a link so I can see what you're looking at.

Let's be clear though, if they're corrupt, cheating on their wives, and backstabbing the nation... Then they aren't following Jesus.

The Bible isn't a recipe you can modify. Or a shopping list to pick and choose from. It is all together. And I have made it pretty clear I think independently of political leaders based on my faith, which is what the Bible teaches. First and foremost, my identity is in Christ and His Kingdom. Everything else I identify with is subordinate to that. And I live that out. It's what it means to be a "practicing Christian" as the world calls it... Or a follower of Christ as He said it.

Worship means devotion, pursuit, trust.

You're confusing a political group with practicing Christians. Look. It. Up. 95%.

What is with lumping me in with trumpers btw? Have I not explained enough times my position on this election? Or is it you just think all Christians in America are Republicans no matter what?

When is the vote?

We also care about the other the orphan, the widow, the poor, and the foreigner. 95% of practicing Christians give to the causes and others. More than any other group or demographic of people. Probably worth a Google.

Bollocks. The US, and particularly the evangelical right, has a terrible track record on any of this. Look how many of them STILL back Trump and his anti Christian views.

I'm just going to clarify that when I use the term evangelical right I don't believe they're actually evangelical in the real sense at all. They look nothing like Jesus and an awful lot like the Pharisees.

Maybe because they want to work with the same priorities that Jesus did. I can't bear the way the evangelical right in the US use abortion as some kind of plumbline while in the background so many of them are corrupt in their financial and sex lives, cheating on their families and the country.

So are you saying the majority always get it right? That's an interesting one when you look at Jesus. The majority didn't follow him in the gospels. Does that mean he was wrong?

In no way have I said I am pro abortion. What I have said is that I believe the best way to lower abortion rates is to improve life for women. That's exactly what I said up thread that you responded to by saying I was wrong. Statistics around the world back me up.

You don't reduce abortion by telling people they can't have abortions or by making cruel misogynistic laws. It's like Jesus said to the Pharisees in Matthew 23, that they put heavy laws on them but don't lift a finger to help.

You can bring out bits of Leviticus and try to squeeze them into modern contexts or you can look at the whole Bible through the lens of Jesus.

That's fair to say, and I can understand why people get so passionate about it on both sides because of how politicized this issue is. At some point though, we the people will have to start thinking critically about this to develop reasonable limitations. Because you're right, right now the loudest voices out there are the extremes who use abortion to scare one another into not agreeing. I hope by now I've made it clear that I don't want to take away abortion rights, but that some limitations are needed outside of rape, incest and medical necessity... And I don't think that's as scary or far apart from the other reasonable voices out there.

The veracity of the Bible as a historical document has been debated and proven time and again.

First, take for example other historical figures Caesar, Plato, Tacitus. There is no question these people exist. The number of historical manuscripts between the three of them number less than 60. In comparison, the number of biblical transcripts and fragments from the time of the apostles numbers over 10,000. Jesus existed.

Second, the apostles who wrote those documents had first hand encounters with Jesus (except Mark), and when you compare their accounts with one another from a documentary evidence standard of proof overwhelmingly confirms they were not lying, as the authors who wrote them were in different countries, without the benefit of any technology. Remember, a scribe was the computer of that era. Many people who have studied this to disprove the gospel have ended up followers of Christ... Like Lee Strobel, who intended to dissuade his wife's faith, and ended up writing a book to convince others.

Last, the proof is in the following. Psalm 34:8 says taste and see that the Lord is good. It doesn't say give God blind faith and He might do something nice for you. It's more along the lines of give Him a chance and He won't let you down, no matter who you are, what you've done, where you came from, or what happened to you. He will bless even the smallest step of faith because that's who He is. Eventually, someone who takes this small step will realize they aren't in control of the mistakes they make that don't line up with God's plan, wisdom, teachings and commandments... Like I did, and every other practicing Christian. We come to the end of ourselves unable to live out the good instruction Jesus gave us, and we humble ourselves, admit our mistakes, and then miracles happen where He forgives us and makes us new, healing the broken parts of our character and blessing us with the ability to be good in ways that we previously weren't. That doesn't mean we're perfect. It means we're working on it. And He tells us to be peculiar. Peculiar like a conservative guy from Kansas going into a liberal UK women's site and engaging in dialogue. I'm still a mess for sure. And I'm not perfect, but I know someone who is. And I want more people to know that about Him because it's true and He instructs me to tell others.