Immigration, how did we get here?

I didn't say asking questions was moaning.

I said moaning was moaning.

Surely you can tell the difference. I know I can.

This ^

I was telling a student to get rid of their chewing gum because it was disgusting that Janet (not her real name) had to crawl under tables to remove gum.

A student asked who Janet was and was incredulous that I knew the name of the cleaner.

They got a mini rant on there being nothing wrong with earning an honest living as a cleaner.

I think one of the issues with manual work is that the traditional 'men's' work has largely gone, mining, heavery factory work etc.

Most of the manual work we have these days is 'women's' work, which has traditionally been undervalued.

Is asking questions ‘moaning’

I’m not sure why immigration becomes this rarefied thing that can’t be discussed. Probably why so many countries are seeing more extreme political results

On robots and AI. Yes it’ll need to be taxed. I’d say a big part of shifting to lower population growth is working out how to tax it in the country you’re in.

Contrary to popular belief the benefit system in the U.K. is not at all generous and very restrictive. Research shows that in countries like ours the impact is to depress wages. Low wages and high cost of living means that jobs are not attractive to U.K. workers. Work simply doesn’t pay. The U.K. instead depends on cheap migrant labour.

The U.K. tabloid press and right wing politicians then scapegoat and blame the lowly paid immigrant workforce for the issues in society resulting from low pay, high cost of living, and defunding of public services / lack of investment in training and so on. it is cheaper to import readily trained workers from abroad than train our own.

Yes, yes, yes.

Some children are un-academic. It must be awful to have to stay on at school to 16 or 18 when you don't want to be there. I sometimes go so far as to say that teenagers should be allowed to leave school at 14 if they have jobs. Instead of the government spending money on them in school, give some at least of that money to employers who must use it to give some teaching in what they really need the youngsters to know, for the job in hand.

Years ago, 1970s or 1980s, I heard someone say that the unions pressed for higher pay for the teenagers and that that was a disinclination for employers to take them on. I know, a 16 year-old might do as much work as a 29 year-old, but there should be pay scales.
There is a huge snobbery in this country about manual work.

Was there a union man called Clive Jenkins? I remember him talking about a high-graduate society. I can't remember if it was 50% or more that he was meaning. When degrees are ten a penny they're not worth much. There are graduates in this country now who have precious little calibre.
I suspect that Labour MPs will chat on about working people but will have that 'white-collar-looks-down-on-blue-collar' attitude a little way beneath the surface.

I'm a home carer.
As an industry, we've been unable to recruit/retain for the last decade.
I would have new starters, sent by the JobCentre, under threat of UC sanctions, shadow me. Some became good carers, but most just stopped turning up. Usually, when they realised they were hardly any better off, after tax, NI, pension, travel, childcare and 55% UC deductions.

So, we've now recruited from Africa and the Philippines.
The visa conditions specify those employees must have guaranteed, full time hours a week. So, if a client leaves us, ie, goes into residential care, or dies, their hours have to be taken from me, and the other UK carers.
Last month, for example, we lost 3 clients, totalling 63 hours a week. So, myself and 2 colleagues lost 20 hours each, a week! I won't be able to cover my rent - again.
So, we are all struggling, due to this unforseen consequence.
I don't understand why this scheme was pushed, rather than just improving pay and conditions, so that UK workers actually want to do the work, and can make a living at it.
Surely, making lowly care work (and similar) more 'respectable' would have cost less than the housing and school places etc, required for the incoming workers and their dependents?

Presumably we will work out how to tax robots in time.

I would assume the people who moan about 'immigrants' will moan about that too.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-49841620.amp gives the comparisons

Does that mean it can only increase over time?

As that larger influx will age

So 20 to 50 years it’s more of an issue

My ds is 15, just taken his GCSEs. He's tried to get a job but no-one will employ him until he is 16. He's taking a pool lifeguarding course after his birthday and will then be able to get a job.

I think fewer older people work now. My dsis retired as a teacher when she was 61 but works as a relief teacher for the local primary school when needed. She is the exception.

Our society & tax system don't seem to encourage flexible working, part time hours etc.

It wasn't rare in your bubble, but it wasn't the norm across society.

The stats are known - only a minority went to uni in the 80s

Germany takes many immigrants and has free movement from the EU.

The answer to your overall question is falling birth rates and increased life expectancy. We have very low numbers of working age people in comparison to our retiree population.

Of course it was rare. Just look at the numbers. You were one of a very small - relatively speaking - group.

The Blair/Brown university policy was deeply flawed. Wanting 50% to go to university made no sense when not 50% of jobs are graduate careers. So many young people saddled with debt and frustrated that they can't get a well paid job.

When I was 13, (in the 70s) I worked as a pub cleaner. At sixteen I waitressed in a cafe at weekends, and worked in a toy factory over the school holidays. At 18 through 21, I worked as a barmaid while doing my degree.

Fewer teens seem to work now. Plus there are a lot more cafes, bars and restaurants so more hospitality jobs and a greater shortfall.

I've picked fruit, worked as a courier, babysat. I was always looking for ways to bring in more money, but our society is wealthier now and has higher expectations.

Because the benefits system disincentives work.

Because of an ingrained, multi-generational entitlement & dependency culture.

And because, for those who can obtain a diagnosis of some sort of made-up chronic illness, mental health condition or spurious ‘disability’, life on benefits is an attractive alternative to a crappy, monotonous minimum wage job. So immigrants are needed to fill the gaps.

It’s a bit of a Ponzi scheme as you keep needing a larger base as people age

Also the pandemic and / or approach didn’t help. Although other countries experienced similar and had shortages or higher immigration after

I'm just saying it's not a UK only issue.

Not Europe. But my parents live in Hong Kong. They import a lot of labour. If you watch expat (the one with Nicole Kidman) on Prime, it's a very accurate presentation of it. Same as Singapore where Dyson has moved to. They can't find locals to fill many jobs.

I went to university in the 80’s. So did most of my cohort. It wasn’t rare.

Absolutely. Plus their gap ya and university experience extends adolescence into early 20s. Suddenly, someone used to long holidays, a lot of freedom, little responsibility, saddled with enormous debt is faced with the prospect of starting at the bottom of the ladder, working longish hours for low pay doing a job they consider beneath them.

Housing costs renting/buying and general cost of living and min wages - I assume.

You are more likely if passing though to tolerate low wages and poor conditions because it's not forever - it's supplementing travel experiences or study or exchange rates means amount earned is more in home countries.

Lack of career progression opportunities and training in many industries like hospitality probably doesn't help.

Also p/t work and studying many employers seem less understanding and flexible than in previous decades - many of DH who in HE students have to quit job near exam times due to lack of flexibility from employers.

Over the decades the amount earned in low paid jobs doesn't keep track of inflation as well - so wages as inflation erodes spending power.

Junior doctors and nurses - highly skilled jobs - have seen their earning power erode over time and working conditions in NHS worsen - we also haven't trained as many as needed - so struggle to retain one we have trained and have gap in number needed so will have to fill these will immigration as well.

Brick laying - it's lack of training and investment in training - at least that what FIL a brick layer by training says - also don't think it's an area that gets mentioned much to kids these days.

It’s every U.K. government- the snobbery from Blair onwards, everyone must go to uni- why?! For 50k of debt and a 20k job- honestly I would love my daughters to have a trade, make their own hours, not be a slave to the rail commute.