Reform are getting a shitload of voters

When filling the gaps we must bear in mind that immigrants will stay and will have children. They are not a no cost option.

In terms of the economy, immigration is like a giant Ponzi scheme. And whilst GDP may go up, it only does so because the population increases and it actually comes at a cost, not a benefit, to the original population.

Please don’t call out this posters misplaced feeling of moral superiority! It’s prob her main topic of conversation over a bottle of Pinot with her Mummy friends- how stupid all these Reform voters are. She can’t understand racism when her Nigerian cleaner is so nice.

I do sometimes wonder how these people square the circle of feeling superior by calling a whole group of people who they don’t know bigots. It’s hard to understand how they don’t even have a whiff of the hypocrisy. I’m guessing because it’s not a diversity box handed to them they can’t think critically about what they’re saying.

I suspect these people are the same ones who think they’re doing the environment a favour when they pack their three kids in the SUV to drive to the recycling centre with 6 yoghurt pots.

Do they? You don’t.

£6.43 a day.

I thought Japan had an aging population and a falling birth rate. They are trying to encourage people to have more babies. China also have an aging population and after years of a one child policy they also are trying to persuade women to have more children. Both need immigration to bridge the gap

They are ageing populations but will make do without large-scale immigration. If I saw what was happening in Europe, I’d be cautious as well.

No economic growth is worth what they are going through (and they aren’t even growing much anyway, aren’t both the UK and Germany officially experiencing recessions despite mass immigration???)

I suspect the people who know Reform voters understand their motivations.

I thought Japan had an aging population and a falling birth rate. They are trying to encourage people to have more babies. China also have an aging population and after years of a one child policy they also are trying to persuade women to have more children. Both need immigration to bridge the gap.

Not once did I suggest careless immigration.

Lots of countries have tried various tactics including financial to encourage women to have children. It hasn't worked. We can train our workforce but there are still likely to be gaps.

Interested that you voted LibDem because you want to rejoin the EU. This is the party that said, post 2016 that they would hold another referendum on the EU and if the result was the same they would ignore the result. This is hardly democratic, so I do not see why they dare call themselves the LibDems.
That aside (and I would never vote reform as I would never vote LibDem) globalisation is not the honeypot and wonderful thing it appears to many who like the EU. The EU has become what Tony Benn feared: a capitalist cartel intent on removing agency from working people in favour of big business. Globalisation is globalisation of capital and does local cultures very little good. Many of those voting Reform want to maintain their culture of liberalism, secularism, rights for women, rights for workers, all of which are endangered by thoughtless immigration and the inclusion in our society of people who don't just disagree with those views, but actively fight against them. For myself, I am tired of the anti-European stance of liberal elites and those who often support the EU - Europe is the only part of the planet that has worked out humanitarian values that cover all members of the population, ended slavery, invented various forms of democracy, treated women as people, not things. If we object to those things as being 'colonial' we are mad and deserve all we get - which is the destruction of our values, our history and our culture.

Neither Japan nor China is without problems

Of course they have problems. Immigration won’t fix them and will likely make life worse for the average person.

Both need immigration as does this country

They do not need immigration. If Japanese won’t have children (and they generally love children ime) then there is a structural reason for that. Bringing in foreigners who will ‘have children in less than ideal circumstances’ (which is really what we are talking about when we speak of this issue). Tinkering with the demographics of a place like Japan (or any ethnostate) will change it forever, it will not be reversed as I do not think people are interchangeable widgets. There is a certain character and temperament to a people that is not explicitly taught

Both do have problems with racism I assure you those problems will get worse with careless immigration.

Surely calling a whole section of the population stupid and racist is a way to get them to vote as you’d prefer.

I think you have a better understanding than many here. I guess we are at a cross roads. Rather like the Industrial Revolution. Rather like the Reformation.

I think we have become used to “any change is good” existence must keep getting better. But that’s one of the biggest lies we tell ourselves.

History is littered with empires of similar mindsets, with people who were just as intelligent, with advanced technology. Who thought they were unbeatable, most of the time the they have been the architects of their own destruction.

This is where we are now in the developed world. We tinker round the edges of a broken system whether that be globalisation or institutions like the NHS.

In reality no political party will solve this. I feel like Reform were the closest to identifying many of the issues. They are right, having some electric cars isn’t going to stop global warming. What we need to do is address the impact of countries like China. What we need yo fo is stop the rampant consumption and yes that links back to how people lived decades ago.

We need humanity esp in the West to change its mindset about the future of mankind.

I voted Lib Dem, because I want to rejoin the EU.

However I understand why people voted Reform. I think parties like that hold a kind of nostalgia, back to the ‘good times’ of the 60s-90s when housing was cheap, the economy was on the up bar one or two blips, population much smaller and the ‘more old fashioned way of life’ was gentler and more enjoyable - globalisation is seen as the opposite of that, it signifies a fast moving word of tech and immigration.

I don’t think all Reform voters are racists, I think a lot of them are simply weary of modernity and the sad places it’s taken us to and want to revert to happier times.

We need to train/educated our own workforce rather than poaching the workforces of nations which are less well off than us. We also could encourage slightly larger families by extending benefits to all families, not just those with both parents (or sole parent) working, so that childcare can be the choice of the family, whether it is parent staying at home, grandparent care, childminder, friendly arrangement or a nursery.

The average racist is not thinking that deeply about this. Their behaviour towards ethnic minorities is not driven by this. There is a reason so many people found a home in Reform and it isn't intelligence.

Neither Japan nor China is without problems. Both need immigration as does this country. Both do have problems with racism.

We need immigration, 1 in 1 out is not going to cut it. We need to to focus on:
How we get the right newcomers for the right roles. We don't just need Drs.
We need to define what good integration looks like and put in an infrastructure that ensures it happens.
We definitely need to stop the boats and other foms of illegal immigration. Unfortunately only taking a firm line on this is going to reduce this.

Changes are going to need to happen on both sides.

No, I meant to say there are large Muslim communities in those constituencies and I still think the 4 (muslim) independents who ousted Labour over Gaza are strongly influenced by their religion and so does the BBC:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3g37mk7vxlo

IMO religion has no place in UK politics.

@paperrocksiscissors

"The only way to reduce immigration REALLY reduce it, is accepting we can't have huge growth with an ageing population and low native birth rate, we will have to accept to be a poorer nation and have a reduced economy , even then, we'll still need some migrants, but we can't bloody well have both, a big economy and low migration, unless we all start having 3 or 4 kids again. And this is the puzzle that all of western Europe and the US is facing."

To take an alternative approach a large number of the legal migrants are working in the agricultural, care and health sector. Jobs that the native population is not willing to do at the salaries on offer.

Now you could in theory resolve this by increasing salaries in those sectors - to take an extreme example if you paid fruit pickers £50k a year then you would have no problem recruiting native workers, however your punnet of strawberries would now cost £25 and no one would buy them! An alternative approach would be to reduce social welfare so that native workers have a choice between say picking fruit or serving to death, although I think such a policy might be a tad Victorian and somewhat unpopular with the electorate!

The ageing population explanation whilst true only offers a part explanation, for example Japan has a much quicker ageing population and is handling it without immigration albeit through two decades of lost growth but they are now coming out the other side of it.

So to my mind there are choices to be made.
Yes the UK could strictly control immigration just like Japan does but this would come at a cost to the economy.
Or UK could continue to import cheap foreign labour to grow our economy and keep inflation low. But by continually seeking to increase the population in some kind of Ponzi scheme you are placing stress on housing, healthcare, education, social cohesion
Or you face massive unpopularity by forcing the native population to do the jobs that they are currently unwilling to do.

But what we cannot do is to dodge the question entirely and accuse anyone asking it of racism, fascism, nationalism etc etc.

China and Japan do very well with worse demographics and no immigration. So no, it doesn’t have to be that way at all.

Sadly racists have not had the memo. It will be interesting to see their reaction when the wheels fall of the of the cart!

Racists have always been focused on immigration. Reform voters complain 'You cant talk about immigration without being accused of being a racist', but the fact is you can't talk to a racist without immigration coming up.

I have a very racist family Uncle, he believes in white replacement, conspiracy theories but above all he believes white people are superior to non-white people. Farage said himself he smashed the BNP by providing a home for white people who weren't racist, but felt some of the BNP policies were spot on, putting British people first. The trouble is, Reform is a home for many who liked many other aspects of the BNP that Reform don't talk about it.

The only way to reduce immigration REALLY reduce it, is accepting we can't have huge growth with an ageing population and low native birth rate, we will have to accept to be a poorer nation and have a reduced economy , even then, we'll still need some migrants, but we can't bloody well have both, a big economy and low migration, unless we all start having 3 or 4 kids again. And this is the puzzle that all of western Europe and the US is facing.

But no politician will tell you the truth about immigration...including Farage, Trump or Le Pen.

People from ethnic backgrounds have to put up no end of shit from the prebirth to the grave. We don't care or need the approval of people like you. You are a huge part of the problem. As you well know BAME is completely unacceptable. BTW If you want to see idiocy, look in the mirror.

£38 per day? That's weirdly specific. Have they got hold of some factoid and misunderstood?

They didn't have to deal with further disadvantage on the basis of their skin colour

You were like, a 98% white country in those days. Hardly relevant.

People who have privilege don't necessarily see that privilege. It's only truly visible when you don't

Tbh it seems like you see privilege where there is none