Election - how soon for VAT on school fees?

I do agree that the optics for some of the arguaments made here against making education a vatable service arent strong as people do sound a bit petulant.

A lot of the arguament boils down to
labour has said imposing VAT will raise X which will be spent on teacher recruitment. But we believe that it wont raise X because people will change their behaviour to a greater extent that they modelled. We actually believe that y number will move to the state system or never join the privste sector so wont pay VAT so X will be smaller than suggested. Then there will also be a loss of income tax associated with this change in behaviour so the policy will actually cost Z not raise X.

But I dont know if people in favour of this idea really believe it will raise money for teacher recruitment. I think its more ideological that they dont like private education as a concept, so it doesnt matter to them if it costs more.

I suppose people need to see how a private sector is of benefit to them. And by people mean those not buying houses in catchments of outstanding schools who might get priced out of them. I mean those just going to the local comp which doesnt have a great reputation and has vacant spaces.

The demographics you described is exactly the demographics in my local private schools though, so I don’t get your point, you seem wildly out of touch who goes to private schools these days. Talking of snobbery!

But does your local private school also have children who live with their grandparents because their own parents died from drug abusers? Or parents who are in jail? Or kids who come to school clearly not well looked after at home? Because our state school has all you refer to plus what I've mentioned.

We only have 1 DD and couldn't afford to send 2 either. We are very far away from the stereotype being pedalled by Labour etc and unfortunately this policy will impact on the DC of parents like us.

And the reality is a lot of people, myself included, work full time to afford these fees. If I reduced to part time or a less stressful job then I could save paying an awful lot of tax and be there for school pick ups and drop offs. Not sure, personally, that I will but I'm sure others will.

Because it’s parents like you who are quick to pass moral judgement, but live in the nice catchment areas, going to the nice schools, this is your privilege for which we are ALL paying for.

You've made a fair few assumptions.

I'm honestly not passing moral judgement: my DH and I are both privately educated. My DH in uk, me in another country.

My dd does go to what is considered a good state school, but we have to live rurally because we cannot afford the housing costs in the town where the school is. I am fine with that because I prefer rural living. My dd doesn't have lacrosse and Latin and a choice of multiple foreign languages on the curriculum, and she won't get taken on school trips to ballet and theatre, but she will get a good standard of education.

However, in spite of it being a good state school, there are a lot of people who can afford houses in that town (we can't) who choose to instead send their children to private school because in their opinion the state school is a 'bad school'. We see all those children getting on a bus in the morning in swathes and heading off on a 40minute bus trip to the nearest city where the private school is.

So they live in a really nice small town, buying up the nice houses because they can afford them, but don't send their children to the good state school.

Just last night I was listening to another friend who lives in a catchment with a state school I envy and would have liked my dd to go to. But nope, apparently it's not good enough, so hers are off to private too. Totally her choice.

But like a pp upthread said, I'm skeptical that people wealthy enough to send three children to private school (like my friend last night) would choose to live in an area of deprivation and poverty where the state school might have a host of poverty related problems.

My friend doesn't live in an area like that. She lives in a desirable area with a very good state school, it's just not good enough for HER kids by HER standards. And I suspect that's the case for a fair number of people who send their kids to private.

But reading this thread, I've taken on a whole new insight into it.

I'm now wondering if those wealthy people occupying the homes in our beautiful town with a good state school tell the story differently. Perhaps they feel they're scrimping and saving because they can't buy an equivalent sized house in the city? Maybe the home they have in our village is their idea of a massive compromise? And maybe they don't think that's an issue because, after all, they are living in an area with a bad state school and therefore they aren't creating a housing issue where people compete to send their kids to that school because who an earth would want to send their kids to a bad state school. I hadn't thought of it like that before.

To be honest, I have learnt a lot from reading these threads.
I don't support private schools but I understand more about the issues than I did.
If we had one child instead of two, we might be in this position as we knew we couldn't afford two so didn't try.

My point is that many private parents are in the same position as us. Please don't buy into the sweeping stereotypes being portrayed by supporters of VAT. The private education system is much more nuanced and varied. There isn't just 1 type of parent, there are many, many different types.

Fair enough, I work flexibly to allow myself to do that for my kids.

Well I'm not a higher rate tax payer for a start.
So we would lose my wage but that's a break even as i wouldn’t need a car etc. On 1 wage we could just about afford extra curricular activities and a weekly tutor until GCSEs.

I can't see how dropping from being a high rate tax payer to no wage at all but paying for extra curriculars and tutors would work out better for as many people as you think.

I would stop working if DD went state because my wage pays the fees. Many of us are in the same boat.

I could then be there to take her to tutors and all the extra curricular activities.

Over subscribed was the official reason. The headmaster stood up and told the panel how detrimental it would be if the 5 kids that were appealing got in. His reasons went from class lessons plans disrupted - to ‘influx of traffic’ at the start and end of the day having an impact on the local residents. I felt like I was in court it was ridiculous.

The only criteria we met was being in the catchment area.

However because she didn’t meet the other criteria of priority places ( which were - coming from specific feeder schools, SEN, in care, siblings ect) she didn’t get offered a place. It really isn’t an easy path way in to state school when you’ve been in private and there is definitely bias.

You missed
"All the high earners will stop working now that they don't need to pay for private schools any more so no more high earner tax"

Why is it?

There is a wealth of independent research that shows that continued Austerity has cost lives.

One only has to look at the cuts to Domestic Violence refuges, over half of women who need help are turned away... what do you think happens to them?

I would hope private tuition is included for VAT. It would be a weird policy to charge VAT for a school over tuition.

But it does lead to Labour having to define what they are and aren't charging VAT on. What is Private Education? Because Education you pay for covers everything from Nursery to University and includes sports clubs, music lessons, Saturday school (ie Polish Saturday school) and tuition as well.

Exactly!

And whilst they may have a rich and interesting state school, I went to a state school which was in such a deprived area where I was only 1 of 2 out of 30 kids in the class whose parents worked and consequently I was bullied throughout schooling because i was a bit different. It was frankly traumatic.

The demographics you described is exactly the demographics in my local private schools though, so I don’t get your point, you seem wildly out of touch who goes to private schools these days. Talking of snobbery!

Lots of Catholic schools fit into this category.
Unfortunately there ARE lots of schools which are a bit “hit and miss” in terms of outcomes and behaviour. Or are great if the child is bright and well motivated but for those who are average, they end up in the lower streams where even low level disruption ( let alone the behaviour one reads about here) hinders their learning.
I don’t believe the majority who send their children to private schools do so out of snobbery and so their child can mix with the “right” people ( whatever that might be)!

You forget though that private schools employ not only teachers but a lot of support staff too, where would these people go? On benefits?

@Ritadidsomethingbad "LOL! I’m so close to the school I can see it from by house. DD should have been offered a place on that fact alone."

On what grounds was she not offered a place?

Awaiting FOI replies from every LA in the UK but you assertion that there is a surplus of places is incorrect.
Plus the spare places may not be where the kids leaving private school live.

Ealing state 0 places for Yrs 10+11.

LOL! I’m so close to the school I can see it from by house. DD should have been offered a place on that fact alone.

Try again.

Whereabouts are you and have you asked every private school within 100 miles about what they offer to state schools?
Our school does free holiday clubs for all local kids (ages 3-11) every school holiday, loans out sports fields/equipment and swimming pool free of charge.
It is also the 2nd largest employer in the town.

@Ritadidsomethingbad
"Private school kids are at the back of a very young list of priorities."
No they aren't. The admissions criteria will be applied in exactly the same way to them as to any other child.

I’ve just had to sit in front of a panel of people on an appeal to get my dd in to a state secondary school. The school is full all the places were allocated to kids from feeder schools, SEN, in care, siblings.

Private school kids are at the back of a very young list of priorities.

So your point isn’t true