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Politics

If labour wins the next GE are they likely to overturn the ban on puberty blockers and disregard the Cass Report?

137 replies

5GreenLeaves · 21/04/2024 13:14

I want to vote for them but I'm so scared they will jump straight on the bandwagon and risk our kids safety. And women's.

OP posts:
lifeturnsonadime · 21/04/2024 16:54

valensiwalensi · 21/04/2024 14:47

My feminism is intersectional thank you.

i didn’t come here to discuss that though.

Is this the one where you claim that some men are the same as disabled women, black women, lesbians and women of religious minority because THEY say they are women?

Not only is that no form of feminism because it centres some men it's also deeply racist, ableist and homophobic.

EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 16:49

It can’t have been just asking questions surely

I mean I didn’t notice anything, maybe it was that phrase

theworldie · 21/04/2024 16:48

I see how when we ask genuine questions for solutions to certain peoples ideas of “how it should be” it gets reported and deleted. Why is that I wonder?🧐

theworldie · 21/04/2024 16:46

I have no idea why my post was deleted.

Is it because I used the word “mangina”?
If so, it is used quite a lot on the feminist board without deletion.

MN - can you clarify why my post was deleted?

NoWordForFluffy · 21/04/2024 16:43

EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 16:29

What why was that post with questions deleted?

Apparently it was reported and broke talk guidelines.

Wonder who reported it can't think? 🤔

5GreenLeaves · 21/04/2024 16:33

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 16:17

I'm not getting into it again. I am very bored of it and its not relevant on this thread. Suffice to say pp's characterisation of my position was not accurate at all.

Your characterisation of my position isn't correct either as its the same as yours!

If you're so bored of it why are you still posting?

Leave the thread to the posters that have an interest in these issues.

OP posts:
NoWordForFluffy · 21/04/2024 16:29

EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 16:29

What why was that post with questions deleted?

Dunno. It didn't warrant it.

I've reported the post quoting it to say it shouldn't have been deleted.

EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 16:29

What why was that post with questions deleted?

NoWordForFluffy · 21/04/2024 16:27

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 16:17

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

I'm not getting into it again. I am very bored of it and its not relevant on this thread. Suffice to say pp's characterisation of my position was not accurate at all.

theworldie · 21/04/2024 16:05

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

valensiwalensi · 21/04/2024 16:05

5GreenLeaves · 21/04/2024 15:56

Because discussions progress?
Because at the forefront of the discussion is the Cass report and the fact that over 8000 children were let down by the NHS is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the mountain of shit that women and children have been put through the last decade in persuit of "inclusion"

An inclusion that excludes women.

So of course the discussion is going to flow into the other atrocities women have faced due to this toxic movement.

Are you saying that every thread posted on MN must strictly adhere to the topic outlined in the title and must not deviate into natural conversation to relating topics?

Must have missed that memo.

Edited

It doesn’t progress though. As soon as anyone dare enter the conversation with an opinion that’s not 100% aligned then it just snowballs into yet another bun fight.

5GreenLeaves · 21/04/2024 16:04

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 15:59

Please don't tell me what my position is. That's not my position at all.

My position is a very few people have gender dysphoria eased by transitioning (a.k.a. being recognised in society as the opposite sex to what they are). I think we should accommodate them where possible, whilst retaining single sex spaces where necessary for safety and dignity.

I don't and never have supported puberty blockers or surgery.

Maybe just ask before you start making stuff up about me.

I think you'll find that most GC people's stance on here too. Mine included.

We don't wnat to eradicate trans people. Just protect our own spaces.

... You didn't ask us our views either...

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 15:59

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 21/04/2024 15:55

Good, we agree. So when women see obvious males entering single-sex spaces and using single-sex services, how do we know who the liars are and who are the ones who genuinely believe they are women? (To be fair, my position here is that it doesn't matter, neither group should be there, but some people try to say it does make a difference and the second group is safe - but it all depends on there being no liars, doesn't it?)

Adam, your starting point on this issue seems to be that trans-identification is a given and people can decide for themselves what their gender identity is, which will trump what sex they are. My position is that these beliefs about gender identity are like religious belief (at best). There's no way for anybody else to verify what someone's gender identity is. Many people who are trans-identified seem to be in thrall to gender stereotypes, which is problematic for the rest of us who would like to see an end to that sort of pigeonholing.

Biological sex on the other hand is real and immutable, and it's easy for most of us to identify what sex another human is, as you would expect for all mammals.

So - if we can't even agree on the definition of terms, how are we supposed to have confidence that a confused girl understands what she is saying when she says 'I identify as a boy'? How is it ever going to be safe to put her on a powerful drug that will stop an essential bodily process like puberty and leave her with lifelong side effects, which may include a drop in IQ and permanently weakened bones? How can we expect her to use her brain, which is artificially kept in a child-like state by the drugs, to make the most important decision she will ever make in her life, namely, to go on cross-hormones, which will mean she will be infertile and unable to enjoy a normal sex life, not to mention yet more physical health issues such as increased risk of heart disease and cancer?

Please don't tell me what my position is. That's not my position at all.

My position is a very few people have gender dysphoria eased by transitioning (a.k.a. being recognised in society as the opposite sex to what they are). I think we should accommodate them where possible, whilst retaining single sex spaces where necessary for safety and dignity.

I don't and never have supported puberty blockers or surgery.

Maybe just ask before you start making stuff up about me.

EasternStandard · 21/04/2024 15:57

5GreenLeaves · 21/04/2024 15:44

Yes, a thread about keeping women and children safe from potential predators like the 'teacher' pictured.
Yawn indeed.

It’s fine, don’t worry people can hide the thread if not what they want

5GreenLeaves · 21/04/2024 15:56

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 15:47

Thats not how you started it though. You started asking if Labour will reverse puberty blockers. Was that just to get people to click on the thread?

Because discussions progress?
Because at the forefront of the discussion is the Cass report and the fact that over 8000 children were let down by the NHS is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the mountain of shit that women and children have been put through the last decade in persuit of "inclusion"

An inclusion that excludes women.

So of course the discussion is going to flow into the other atrocities women have faced due to this toxic movement.

Are you saying that every thread posted on MN must strictly adhere to the topic outlined in the title and must not deviate into natural conversation to relating topics?

Must have missed that memo.

OP posts:
Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 21/04/2024 15:55

Bromptotoo · 21/04/2024 15:42

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

I believe the MoJ stats do not include those with a GRC. There's a problem becuase the numbers in gaol with a GRC are so small that there's a risk of 'jigsaw identification'.

Your points 1 & 1 - assume it should be 1&2 - are not mutually exclusive.

I suspect most fall into the second group and are seeking attention and/or hoping to get a pass into easier conditions.

Edited

Good, we agree. So when women see obvious males entering single-sex spaces and using single-sex services, how do we know who the liars are and who are the ones who genuinely believe they are women? (To be fair, my position here is that it doesn't matter, neither group should be there, but some people try to say it does make a difference and the second group is safe - but it all depends on there being no liars, doesn't it?)

Adam, your starting point on this issue seems to be that trans-identification is a given and people can decide for themselves what their gender identity is, which will trump what sex they are. My position is that these beliefs about gender identity are like religious belief (at best). There's no way for anybody else to verify what someone's gender identity is. Many people who are trans-identified seem to be in thrall to gender stereotypes, which is problematic for the rest of us who would like to see an end to that sort of pigeonholing.

Biological sex on the other hand is real and immutable, and it's easy for most of us to identify what sex another human is, as you would expect for all mammals.

So - if we can't even agree on the definition of terms, how are we supposed to have confidence that a confused girl understands what she is saying when she says 'I identify as a boy'? How is it ever going to be safe to put her on a powerful drug that will stop an essential bodily process like puberty and leave her with lifelong side effects, which may include a drop in IQ and permanently weakened bones? How can we expect her to use her brain, which is artificially kept in a child-like state by the drugs, to make the most important decision she will ever make in her life, namely, to go on cross-hormones, which will mean she will be infertile and unable to enjoy a normal sex life, not to mention yet more physical health issues such as increased risk of heart disease and cancer?

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 15:47

5GreenLeaves · 21/04/2024 15:44

Yes, a thread about keeping women and children safe from potential predators like the 'teacher' pictured.
Yawn indeed.

Thats not how you started it though. You started asking if Labour will reverse puberty blockers. Was that just to get people to click on the thread?

5GreenLeaves · 21/04/2024 15:44

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 15:43

I see this isn't actually a thread about what Labour will or won't do at all. Just another thread about trans politics. Very boring 😴

Yes, a thread about keeping women and children safe from potential predators like the 'teacher' pictured.
Yawn indeed.

OP posts:
AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 15:43

I see this isn't actually a thread about what Labour will or won't do at all. Just another thread about trans politics. Very boring 😴

AdamRyan · 21/04/2024 15:42

WallaceinAnderland · 21/04/2024 14:44

.

What does this person have to do with whether Labour will reverse puberty blockers? Confused That is a Canadian teacher who didn't take puberty blockers. Totally irrelevant.

Bromptotoo · 21/04/2024 15:42

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

I believe the MoJ stats do not include those with a GRC. There's a problem becuase the numbers in gaol with a GRC are so small that there's a risk of 'jigsaw identification'.

Your points 1 & 1 - assume it should be 1&2 - are not mutually exclusive.

I suspect most fall into the second group and are seeking attention and/or hoping to get a pass into easier conditions.

RedToothBrush · 21/04/2024 15:30

I personally think that the Rubicon has been crossed with certain issues relating to trans.

Insurance Risk means no puberty blockers for children and limited cross hormones for under 18 unless we start to see significantly different high quality research findings without high levels of side effects and detransition (we won't).

It's just untenable for the NHS.

Challenges can be legally fought now with Cass too.

Other issues are muddier and not clear cut.

tissueboxandcandles · 21/04/2024 15:27

The most recent statistics from the prison service's own figures are that men in prison who identify as women are 8 times more likely to have been convicted of rape/sexual assault than the whole of the rest of the male prisoners. There is a a thread over on FWR that has plenty of links to the source data.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 21/04/2024 15:25

5GreenLeaves · 21/04/2024 15:17

This is interesting though.

I am a simple person. These are government statistics, so one would hope they are accurate. I'm not sure those figures include prisoners with a GRC, so if anything they may be an underestimate.

Is there any way to make sense of these stats other than drawing one of these two conclusions?

  1. Male prisoners who identify as women have a higher rate of sex offending than other male prisoners. (Sex offending is, of course, a very rare offence amongst women in prison.)
OR
  1. Male prisoners who are convicted sex offenders may say they identify as a woman in the hope of getting transferred to a women's prison. In other words, they say this because they are manipulative liars who enjoy playing the system, and they have a deep-seated urge to abuse and upset women.