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Politics

Why is a conflict 2,200 miles away allowed to cause mayhem on UK streets?

118 replies

OneMerryRedSnail · 25/02/2024 17:51

Shocking moment violent pro-Palestine mob attack workers outside Bradford kebab shop after owner 'refused to boycott Coca-Cola' amid claims soft drink giant 'profits from Israel's war in Gaza' | Daily Mail Online

Moment brawl erupts outside kebab shop with pro-Palestine protestors

Salahudin Yusuf, owner of the popular Salah's on Leeds Road, was reportedly left needing stitches last night after being assaulted by members of a group of up to 50 people, a friend said.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13123897/Moment-violent-brawl-erupts-outside-kebab-shop-workers-pro-Palestine-protestors-owner-left-needing-stitches-refusing-boycott-Coca-Cola.html?ito=windows-widget-push-notification&ci=573862

OP posts:
MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 28/02/2024 14:56

Baileyscream · 28/02/2024 14:28

Firstly maybe they represent people who don't agree with what is being protested about or they represent people who have other priorities and want them to concentrate on those. Just because x amount of people are angry about something doesn't mean the majority of people are. Maybe the majority of people are being represented. I wonder if you'd feel the same if it was weekly protests by the national front or whatever right wing group was costing so much.

It isn't up to me to decide but I can have my views and my view is that the money would be better spent elsewhere.

By protesting for protesting sake, I'm referring to the fact that the protest wont make a difference.

Of course you have a right to your views. You can go out and protest against people having the right to protest if you wish.

If people have other priorities that they want the government to focus on instead, they have the right to protest about these issues in order to make their views heard.

If the National Front or equivalent was out protesting every weekend, then of course I wouldn't like it, but as long as their protests stayed within the boundaries of the law, I wouldn't be arguing for their right to protest to be curtailed - I would be out on the streets in a counter-protest. Either you believe in free speech and the right to protest or you don't... you can't agree with it only for causes that you think are "worthy".

Anyway, it still isn't clear as to what you actually want anyone to do about the Palestine protests. If you just want to rant and say that they're expensive and a waste of time, then fair enough, but do you actually want action to be taken to limit or stop them? If so, then what?

Baileyscream · 28/02/2024 14:28

Firstly maybe they represent people who don't agree with what is being protested about or they represent people who have other priorities and want them to concentrate on those. Just because x amount of people are angry about something doesn't mean the majority of people are. Maybe the majority of people are being represented. I wonder if you'd feel the same if it was weekly protests by the national front or whatever right wing group was costing so much.

It isn't up to me to decide but I can have my views and my view is that the money would be better spent elsewhere.

By protesting for protesting sake, I'm referring to the fact that the protest wont make a difference.

showmethegin · 28/02/2024 14:20

Baileyscream · 28/02/2024 13:58

Clearly it isn't just me given this was being discussed on the news. It seems there is a proposal to implement two week notice for large scale demonstrations because of this, the cost and the police needed. These particular protests are being used as a reason to change laws limiting our right to protest. Protesting for protest sake which is what this is, is a waste. Apart from intimidating mps when protests are held outside their homes, what can these accomplish? Nothing, I seriously doubt hamas and Israel will take any notice either of the protests or of a ceasefire vote in HoP.

If the protesters want to protest repetitively why not let the organisers foot the bill?

What does that even mean, protesting for protests sake?

It blows my mind that you hear MPs saying "there's too many protests nowadays, let's restrict the right to protest", rather than think, oh a lot of people are angry about x issue or y issue, why don't we speak to them and see what's going on and actually REPRESENT the people.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 28/02/2024 14:15

Baileyscream · 28/02/2024 13:58

Clearly it isn't just me given this was being discussed on the news. It seems there is a proposal to implement two week notice for large scale demonstrations because of this, the cost and the police needed. These particular protests are being used as a reason to change laws limiting our right to protest. Protesting for protest sake which is what this is, is a waste. Apart from intimidating mps when protests are held outside their homes, what can these accomplish? Nothing, I seriously doubt hamas and Israel will take any notice either of the protests or of a ceasefire vote in HoP.

If the protesters want to protest repetitively why not let the organisers foot the bill?

You want organisers to foot the bill? So people should only have the right to protest if they can afford it? Another slippery slope right there...

Once again, I would point out that it is not for you to decide that other people's protests are pointless or wasteful. That is for them to decide.

Baileyscream · 28/02/2024 13:58

Clearly it isn't just me given this was being discussed on the news. It seems there is a proposal to implement two week notice for large scale demonstrations because of this, the cost and the police needed. These particular protests are being used as a reason to change laws limiting our right to protest. Protesting for protest sake which is what this is, is a waste. Apart from intimidating mps when protests are held outside their homes, what can these accomplish? Nothing, I seriously doubt hamas and Israel will take any notice either of the protests or of a ceasefire vote in HoP.

If the protesters want to protest repetitively why not let the organisers foot the bill?

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 28/02/2024 13:42

Baileyscream · 28/02/2024 13:29

@TomeTome I agree with the right to protests. I just think this protest has been done over and over, it isn't change anything just waste money.

Yes, you think it has been done. But the protesters are not done with protesting because the killing in Palestine hasn't stopped. Do you really expect them to roll over and say "oh well, at least we tried"?

It doesn't matter whether you (or I) agree with them or not. If they don't like the status quo, they have the right to express that view... over and over and over again if they see fit. All of us have that right.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 28/02/2024 13:36

Baileyscream · 28/02/2024 13:26

These protests have been done weekly already, it isn't as though the opportunity hasn't been given. All these protests are accomplishing is cost, intimidation and inconvenience week in week. There are genocides and other horrific things happening all over the world. Throwing good money after bad on these is just a waste now.

So what do you propose is the solution?

People are continuing to protest because the issues that they are protesting about haven't been resolved. They have a democratic right to carry on protesting for as long as they feel it's necessary. It isn't for you to decide whether it's a waste or not, if the protesters still feel that it is worthwhile.

Are you suggesting that the protests should be banned now that the protesters have had their opportunity? Because that's a very slippery slope in my view.

I do understand that democracy can be really annoying at times. Other people often do stuff that we don't necessarily agree with. But you take away those democratic rights at your peril... one day it might be you that feels the need to protest.

Baileyscream · 28/02/2024 13:29

@TomeTome I agree with the right to protests. I just think this protest has been done over and over, it isn't change anything just waste money.

Baileyscream · 28/02/2024 13:26

These protests have been done weekly already, it isn't as though the opportunity hasn't been given. All these protests are accomplishing is cost, intimidation and inconvenience week in week. There are genocides and other horrific things happening all over the world. Throwing good money after bad on these is just a waste now.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 28/02/2024 13:21

What's right is indeed subjective.

Some people think democracy is important. The right to protest is fundamental to this, but it comes with a price tag.

Some people are not very bothered about democracy and would choose to prioritise other things because they don't want to incur the costs associated with that approach to government.

I see the dire situation that our public services are in, and of course, I want them to have every last penny that is available. However, not at the cost of people's right to protest - whether I agree with that protest or not.

If the government was really worried about the cost of policing the protests taking away from essential services such as the NHS and education, they wouldn't be proposing tax cuts right now.

TomeTome · 28/02/2024 13:15

What if the “getting involved in the Middle East” is actually a net gain for the UK financially? Would you then be fine with people protesting?

Baileyscream · 28/02/2024 13:11

TomeTome · 28/02/2024 12:56

I suppose because you were suggesting that the cost to the country of being able to protest was too great. Some people see things in terms of freedom and doing what’s right and some are more focused on the £s. Either way it’s important to consider the wider implications not just focus on one aspect.

What's viewed as right is subjective. We have children not getting an education, people waiting for cancer treatment, more people than ever using food banks, shortage of housing, homelessness etc here now in this country. All of these things need alot more than £19million to fix but that amount of money wouldn't hurt. Why waste it and more policing a protest about something we can't change?

Some do think about wider aspects but I doubt you'll agree with their concerns. Eg Israel is our ally, Palestine isn't recognised, Hamas is deemed a terrorist organisation and no good has come from us getting involved in the Middle East previously. Rather than wasting money on something we can't change we could sped it here on things that could make a difference. £19 million would change things massively where I live.

TomeTome · 28/02/2024 12:56

Baileyscream · 28/02/2024 09:10

No idea but what difference does that make?

I suppose because you were suggesting that the cost to the country of being able to protest was too great. Some people see things in terms of freedom and doing what’s right and some are more focused on the £s. Either way it’s important to consider the wider implications not just focus on one aspect.

OneMerryRedSnail · 28/02/2024 12:12

TomeTome · 28/02/2024 09:08

I wonder how much the arms sales to the region have made?

Hmm, not sure, but you could ask US, Germany, Italy, and Canada for some figures 🤔

OP posts:
Baileyscream · 28/02/2024 09:10

No idea but what difference does that make?

TomeTome · 28/02/2024 09:08

I wonder how much the arms sales to the region have made?

Baileyscream · 28/02/2024 08:23

Sky news have just said that the protests in London have cost £19 million upto now. £19 million spent on something which the UK has no real say in. They really need to stop now, what points can possibly be conveyed that hasn't already been?

OneMerryRedSnail · 26/02/2024 16:55

@showmethegin "Yes? I have personally spoken to my MP about this issue for a number of years and have donated monthly to CAAT for about 3 years!"

Excellent.

OP posts:
showmethegin · 26/02/2024 16:35

OneMerryRedSnail · 26/02/2024 16:26

@showmethegin "so I want to petition my government to stop selling arms to Israel"

So will you also be petitioning the government to stop selling arms to Saudi Arabia that has an appalling Human Rights Record and is half responsible for the conflict in Yemen?
According to the UN, over 150,000 people have been killed in Yemen, as well as estimates of more than 227,000 dead as a result of an ongoing famine and lack of healthcare facilities due to the 10 year war.

Will you also be petitioning the government not to supply arms to China? The Asian superpower has long been accused of engaging in the suppression of its Uighur Muslim minority in the west of the country. The Chinese government has committed a series of ongoing Human Rights abuses against Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang that is often characterized as a genocide.

Or are you rather selective in your approach to Human Rights?

Yes? I have personally spoken to my MP about this issue for a number of years and have donated monthly to CAAT for about 3 years!

OneMerryRedSnail · 26/02/2024 16:26

@showmethegin "so I want to petition my government to stop selling arms to Israel"

So will you also be petitioning the government to stop selling arms to Saudi Arabia that has an appalling Human Rights Record and is half responsible for the conflict in Yemen?
According to the UN, over 150,000 people have been killed in Yemen, as well as estimates of more than 227,000 dead as a result of an ongoing famine and lack of healthcare facilities due to the 10 year war.

Will you also be petitioning the government not to supply arms to China? The Asian superpower has long been accused of engaging in the suppression of its Uighur Muslim minority in the west of the country. The Chinese government has committed a series of ongoing Human Rights abuses against Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang that is often characterized as a genocide.

Or are you rather selective in your approach to Human Rights?

OP posts:
Baileyscream · 26/02/2024 15:44

The people I'm referring to as being viewed as not wanting to integrate are well represented. There are clearly culture clashes locally but I take on what you're saying and agree, I'd love to have a bigger mix and yes I think it would help as well as making life more interesting. I also think not wanting to integrate and not being able to or there being barriers in place are two different things and there is a bit of both.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 26/02/2024 15:27

Baileyscream · 26/02/2024 14:40

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves I’m glad you live in an area where it works, that would be the ideal. All of of those things you mentioned of course play a part and also racist views handed down from generation to generation but that isn’t all one sided. There are issues with some cultures not wanting to integrate and viewing other cultures as less, women and girls especially. Racism, lack of tolerance and respect for other people’s beliefs and values is clearly rising and the election is heightening things.

Maybe looking at the mix of cultures as well, which cultures? What type of economic breakdown between them as I’m sure this plays a part.

Just to say not all of Rochdale is poverty ridden and uneducated likewise I’m sure there must be areas where you live that aren’t picture perfect and I find it hard to believe in any diverse population there isn’t some racism.

Of course there is some racism where I live - my own husband and daughter have both been subjected to it. But on the whole, the community is very mixed and very integrated, and overall, it works well.

I'm less than convinced about certain cultures not wanting to integrate. Many of the cultures that are often viewed as "not wanting to integrate" are well represented in my community as well, and they are perfectly well integrated here. I think it does often come back to low levels of education - amongst the immigrant population sometimes as well as amongst the original communities.

I think it also helps a lot when then there is genuine diversity - ie lots of different ethnicities and religions represented. I think it can become a lot more polarised when there are essentially just two dominant groups.

showmethegin · 26/02/2024 15:17

1dayatatime · 26/02/2024 08:40

@PinkTeaForMe

"Daily Mail doing what they do best and stirring the pot. Mumsnet closet racists all over it.

For the record, protests against the genocide are attended by thousands of British Muslims and non Muslims alike who stand together in peace. U. The idiots in this article don't represent the thousands of UK Muslims who are opposed to the illegal occupation."

++++

So right now there is full on ethnic cleansing going on in Pakistan of 1.7 million Afghans but nobody seems to care.

www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/11/22/whats-wrong-the-silence-of-pakistanis-on-expulsion-of-afghan-refugees

Right now there is a full on genocide going on for over 10 years of Muslim Uighurs in China but I see no marches.

www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037.amp

Even though Christianity is the largest religion worldwide, it is also the most persecuted religion worldwide, yet this rarely makes the news. This is especially the case in countries with larger Muslim populations., moreover these countries are characterized by their authoritarian nature.

www.statista.com/statistics/271002/persecution-of-christians-worldwide/

amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/25/left-persecution-christians-meriam-ibrahim-sudan

So what makes the situation in Gaza so different that it warrants the regular and large protests? It seems that genocide, ethnic cleansing or persecution slips by with barely a murmur when it is done by Muslims against fellow Muslims or by Muslims against Christians.

Could it be that it is not just the terrible events going in Gaza but the point that it is being done by Jewish Israelis that creates such outrage compared to the above.

Or to paraphrase your comment: "Anyone who doesn't want to see the real agenda ..... needs to have a word with themselves".

But rather than address the above points and double standards your stock answer is to dismiss them as either closet or overt racism.

I can only speak for myself and all the people I personally know who have been involved in organising Palestinian fundraising and demo attendance.

I have been moved to act in this case because unlike the case of the other abhorrent acts in other parts of the world, our government is supporting this one. My taxes are being used to support this genocide, so I want to petition my government to stop selling arms to Israel and to use their influence to call for a ceasefire.

On a personal level I have seen images coming out of Gaza that I will never ever forget. I have seen doctors from MSF talking about children with sniper bullets in their heads, children being left to die on the floor of hospitals without pain relief, whole families wiped out added in the fact that those still alive are starving to death. I feel a responsibility as a human to take a stand in my own little way.

My horror in the situation has nothing to do with the fact the people doing this call themselves Jews. In contrast I can't see anything Jewish in the way the Israeli government are behaving. My Jewish friends are horrified that this is being done in their name.

Baileyscream · 26/02/2024 15:00

Just to add I think most people would struggle hold Rochdsae up as an example of working multiculuralism.

Baileyscream · 26/02/2024 14:40

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves I’m glad you live in an area where it works, that would be the ideal. All of of those things you mentioned of course play a part and also racist views handed down from generation to generation but that isn’t all one sided. There are issues with some cultures not wanting to integrate and viewing other cultures as less, women and girls especially. Racism, lack of tolerance and respect for other people’s beliefs and values is clearly rising and the election is heightening things.

Maybe looking at the mix of cultures as well, which cultures? What type of economic breakdown between them as I’m sure this plays a part.

Just to say not all of Rochdale is poverty ridden and uneducated likewise I’m sure there must be areas where you live that aren’t picture perfect and I find it hard to believe in any diverse population there isn’t some racism.