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Original poster

A Warning About Donald Trump

82 replies

MsAmerica · 16/01/2024 02:11

I don't know how much people here really care about Trump, but I'm sharing a very good editorial from the New York Times. It doesn't contain anything new, but is just very well done. I'm posting an excerpt, with links if you want to read the whole thing.

A Warning About Donald Trump and 2024
This Election Year Is Unlike Any Other
Editorial Board

As president, he wielded power carelessly and often cruelly and put his ego and his personal needs above the interests of his country. Now, as he campaigns again, his worst impulses remain as strong as ever — encouraging violence and lawlessness, exploiting fear and hate for political gain, undermining the rule of law and the Constitution, applauding dictators — and are escalating as he tries to regain power. He plots retribution, intent on eluding the institutional, legal and bureaucratic restraints that put limits on him in his first term...

Mr. Trump does not offer voters anything resembling a normal option of Republican or Democrat, conservative or liberal, big government or small. He confronts America with a far more fateful choice: between the continuance of the United States as a nation dedicated to “the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity” and a man who has proudly shown open disdain for the law and the protections and ideals of the Constitution...

Mr. Trump’s four years in the White House did lasting damage to the presidency and to the nation. He deepened existing divisions among Americans, leaving the country dangerously polarized; he so demeaned public discourse that many Americans have become inured to lies, insults and personal attacks at the highest levels of leadership. His contempt for the rule of law raised concerns about the long-term stability of American democracy, and his absence of a moral compass threatened to corrode the ideals of national service...

Mr. Trump has made clear his conviction that only “losers” accept legal, institutional or even constitutional constraints. He has promised vengeance against his political opponents, whom he has called “vermin” and threatened with execution. This is particularly disturbing at a time of heightened concern about political violence, with threats increasing against elected officials of both parties.

He has repeatedly demonstrated a deep disdain for the First Amendment and the basic principles of democracy, chief among them the right to freely express peaceful dissent from those in power without fear of retaliation, and he has made no secret of his readiness to expand the powers of the presidency, including the deployment of the military and the Justice Department, to have his way.

For the whole article:

www.nytimes.com/2024/01/06/opinion/trump-2024-campaign-warning.html

dnyuz.com/2024/01/06/this-election-year-is-unlike-any-other/

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Original poster
MsAmerica · 17/12/2024 01:08

HappiestSleeping · 13/12/2024 03:59

You disagreed with me earlier in the thread that Americans wouldn't vote for a female president, so are you saying that the fact that she's black is the decider?

Harris ran rings around Trump in all the debates I saw.

Edited
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Sadly, I think being either black or being female is considered undesirable. Obama was elected despite his race, but taking her race and gender together...

Actually, almost anyone could best Trump in a debate. Kamala did great against him. But although it's hard to find any Democrat in the U.S. to admit this, she wasn't a great candidate. Far better than Trump, of course, but still not great.

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HappiestSleeping · 13/12/2024 03:59

MsAmerica · 13/12/2024 00:37

I disagree. I think it can make a big difference if the vice-president is an alert, smart, articulate, experienced white man ... as opposed to a black woman.

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You disagreed with me earlier in the thread that Americans wouldn't vote for a female president, so are you saying that the fact that she's black is the decider?

Harris ran rings around Trump in all the debates I saw.

Original poster
MsAmerica · 13/12/2024 00:37

HappiestSleeping · 11/12/2024 05:53

Politics these days is all about the presentation. Look at the flack Starmer is getting because he has no charisma. Personally, I'd rather have someone capable with no charisma, than someone incapable with lots of it. (I am not meaning to suggest that I think Starmer is capable here.)

Biden did a lot of good for the US, but unfortunately, none of that matters if he can't capitalise on it in the moment, and there were many times when he didn't / couldn't.

I don't think it would have made a difference who his vice president was, he came across as a doddery old man too many times in front of the cameras.

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I disagree. I think it can make a big difference if the vice-president is an alert, smart, articulate, experienced white man ... as opposed to a black woman.

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Happyinarcon · 11/12/2024 06:02

MsAmerica · 26/04/2024 02:07

I think I'll disagree with you on that, @HappiestSleeping.

Its not that the U.S. won't elect a woman, even though they're shamefully behind the times. It's that Hillary, for some reason, inspired an astonishing level of irrational hatred. Maybe it's because she was the most feminist of the major women initially, or maybe it was just because she was more or less the highest ranking, with her own excellent credentials. (There was strong negativity against the first woman VP candidate, too, Geraldine Ferraro.)

But I do totally agree that Trump won because of the hatred directed toward Hillary.

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I don’t think her trips to Epstein island helped

HappiestSleeping · 11/12/2024 05:53

MsAmerica · 11/12/2024 01:14

Actually, no, Biden wasn't "incapable." I think it was someone on MN who pointed out that presidents rarely have to make instant decisions, and Biden's overall judgment was sound, and he was surrounded by good advisors.

My personal opinion is that he could have won with a different vice president.

Show quote history

Politics these days is all about the presentation. Look at the flack Starmer is getting because he has no charisma. Personally, I'd rather have someone capable with no charisma, than someone incapable with lots of it. (I am not meaning to suggest that I think Starmer is capable here.)

Biden did a lot of good for the US, but unfortunately, none of that matters if he can't capitalise on it in the moment, and there were many times when he didn't / couldn't.

I don't think it would have made a difference who his vice president was, he came across as a doddery old man too many times in front of the cameras.

Original poster
MsAmerica · 11/12/2024 01:14

stormee · 03/12/2024 00:57

@MsAmerica who knows the alternative! Maybe if America had a decent opposing candidate then he wouldn't have been voted for. But America has spoken. He has won again. That's democracy. Biden pulled out because he's incapable now and America wasn't ready for a female president. The voters have spoken

Actually, no, Biden wasn't "incapable." I think it was someone on MN who pointed out that presidents rarely have to make instant decisions, and Biden's overall judgment was sound, and he was surrounded by good advisors.

My personal opinion is that he could have won with a different vice president.

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username358 · 03/12/2024 01:02

MsAmerica · 03/12/2024 00:50

I think you need an actual historian to give a good answer to this, but it strikes me that although Hitler caused the actual death of those near him geographically, and god knows how many more in armies who went to war against him ... The ways that Trump has emboldened authoritarians leaders - Putin, Orban, Bolsonaro, et al., may end up having created more havoc, more unhappiness, more broadly in the world, possibly even resulting in major wars, than Hitler (although presumably not more deaths, one hopes). I know that's an outlier take, so I'm not expecting you to agree with me.

Who know - maybe if Trump had been the type to forcefully support Ukraine, perhaps Putin wouldn't have invaded.

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The US is the most aggressive, dangerous country in the world. They do nothing but interfere in other countries and have funded a few genocides.

However, they still haven't come anywhere near creating the same sort of havoc as Hitler. It's impossible to know how many died during WW2 but it could be as high as 80m.

Trump alone was nothing on Hitler, he's an isolationist. Obama was far more of a hawk and Biden is pumping billions into Israel's ethnic cleansing project.

The far right is on the rise around the world and Trump is just an example of that trend.

MrsSkylerWhite · 03/12/2024 00:59

I care very much, especially about his association with Musk and the likelihood of he and Vance getting Trump (who’s bad enough) out of office and taking over.

stormee · 03/12/2024 00:57

@MsAmerica who knows the alternative! Maybe if America had a decent opposing candidate then he wouldn't have been voted for. But America has spoken. He has won again. That's democracy. Biden pulled out because he's incapable now and America wasn't ready for a female president. The voters have spoken

Original poster
MsAmerica · 03/12/2024 00:50

username358 · 21/11/2024 01:13

So we're agreed that Trump will not effect the UK in the same way he'll effect the US.

Can you please explain how:

Trump has ...wreaked more global havoc than anyone since Hitler.

As I pointed out, Hitler killed millions and invaded many countries. How did Trump's last tenure create anywhere near the same level of havoc?

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I think you need an actual historian to give a good answer to this, but it strikes me that although Hitler caused the actual death of those near him geographically, and god knows how many more in armies who went to war against him ... The ways that Trump has emboldened authoritarians leaders - Putin, Orban, Bolsonaro, et al., may end up having created more havoc, more unhappiness, more broadly in the world, possibly even resulting in major wars, than Hitler (although presumably not more deaths, one hopes). I know that's an outlier take, so I'm not expecting you to agree with me.

Who know - maybe if Trump had been the type to forcefully support Ukraine, perhaps Putin wouldn't have invaded.

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username358 · 21/11/2024 01:13

MsAmerica · 21/11/2024 01:04

No, I never said that, @username358.

No idea why you're spinning off into such wild fantasies.

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So we're agreed that Trump will not effect the UK in the same way he'll effect the US.

Can you please explain how:

Trump has ...wreaked more global havoc than anyone since Hitler.

As I pointed out, Hitler killed millions and invaded many countries. How did Trump's last tenure create anywhere near the same level of havoc?

Original poster
MsAmerica · 21/11/2024 01:04

username358 · 20/11/2024 02:21

So he's going to effect the UK in exactly the same way as he effects the US? He's going to take over the government, bring in a bunch of freaks, set the military on immigrants, slash Medicare and welfare, bring in tax breaks for the wealthy, ruin the environment and vastly ncrease costs?

You're seriously suggesting that during Trump's first term he invaded Europe and killed millions of people or the equivalent of that? I must have blinked as I didn't notice.

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No, I never said that, @username358.

No idea why you're spinning off into such wild fantasies.

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username358 · 20/11/2024 02:21

MsAmerica · 20/11/2024 02:06

Excuse me, but I always attack Americans when they say things, like: I don't care about Ukraine because it doesn't affect me. So I have to do a bit of the same now. Trump has, to my mind, wreaked more global havoc than anyone since Hitler. Unfortunately, as individuals we may not be able to do very much. But to think he affects no one outside the U.S. is completely short-sighted.

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So he's going to effect the UK in exactly the same way as he effects the US? He's going to take over the government, bring in a bunch of freaks, set the military on immigrants, slash Medicare and welfare, bring in tax breaks for the wealthy, ruin the environment and vastly ncrease costs?

You're seriously suggesting that during Trump's first term he invaded Europe and killed millions of people or the equivalent of that? I must have blinked as I didn't notice.

Original poster
MsAmerica · 20/11/2024 02:06

username358 · 12/11/2024 22:20

I'm not frightened as he doesn't really effect the UK. He's not our problem.

Excuse me, but I always attack Americans when they say things, like: I don't care about Ukraine because it doesn't affect me. So I have to do a bit of the same now. Trump has, to my mind, wreaked more global havoc than anyone since Hitler. Unfortunately, as individuals we may not be able to do very much. But to think he affects no one outside the U.S. is completely short-sighted.

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justasking111 · 14/11/2024 13:59

I've always said that it's their future to decide.

1dayatatime · 14/11/2024 09:22

@lovemetomybones

"As I said earlier, not caring is essentially the problem, Americans don't care enough about others so vote for someone who promises tax relief at the detriment of others"

A similar logic though can be applied to UK voters not caring about others and voting for someone who promises increased Government spending paid for by tax rises on other people (ie "the rich"
which is defined as anyone with an income higher than the average voter but most definitely not the average voter).

lovemetomybones · 13/11/2024 19:31

I'm not denying them anything! Don't make things up to support your thoughts! Reminds me of someone.... wonder who?!

As I said earlier, not caring is essentially the problem, Americans don't care enough about others so vote for someone who promises tax relief at the detriment of others.

A vast number of people globally don't care enough because it's too many miles away.

Hell is other people!

username358 · 13/11/2024 13:38

lovemetomybones · 13/11/2024 13:06

There's nothing rational about this choice

America is a democracy and you're denying them agency. Trump hasn't got in through a coup, he has been legitimately voted in by an overwhelming number of people.

They want Trump knowing the kind of person he is and knowing what he's likely to do.

That's their choice and they're going to have to deal with the consequences. Everyone was aware of the kind of man he was after the insurrection and he hasn't been timid about his admiration for authorisation.

They voted in someone who wants to tear up the rule book. Meanwhile the UK will carry on as usual and probably have negotiations and some compromise about trade for the next few years.

We'll just have to see what happens. He may force Europe's hand regarding security and the economy which is not necessarily negative and he'll be gone soon enough (whether that's peaceful is another matter).

JRSKSSBH · 13/11/2024 13:11

If The NYT really gave a shit about American democracy, how about its complicity in the cover up of Biden’s dementia? The delay to him dropping out, meant only Harris could run in the time left. She was such a duff choice.

Quitelikeit · 13/11/2024 13:10

The owners of the NYT has beef with Trump

Its nothing new

You are basically sharing an
opinion of Trump written by someone with a huge platform

it doesn’t mean it is true fact

JRSKSSBH · 13/11/2024 13:08

zoom1982 · 17/01/2024 10:40

A 'warning' from a heavily Democrat biased rag? Imagine my surprise.

Came here to write the same thing. The New York Tines has been doom-mongering for months, and is now having a tantrum because the dem nominee was rejected.

lovemetomybones · 13/11/2024 13:08

Apathy is a growing trend which people like Trump exploit. It's why he gets away with so much!

The First convicted president.

lovemetomybones · 13/11/2024 13:06

There's nothing rational about this choice

lovemetomybones · 13/11/2024 13:05

And the security of Europe definitely impacts the UK, his relationship with Starmer impacts the UK, his trade embargo's will impact the UK.

username358 · 13/11/2024 13:05

lovemetomybones · 13/11/2024 13:04

It's that kind of apathetic opinion that creates isolationist, selfish societies and one of the reasons why he has been reelected!

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And it's your kind of ineffectual hand wringing and hyperbolic nonsense that drives people to vote emotionally rather than rationally.