Active discussions

Help protect children from gaming harms.

Take our survey

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Politics
Original poster

What is this rhetoric concerning Rees-Mogg v civil service all about?

70 replies

Calafsidentity · 13/05/2022 12:57

Am I missing something obvious? What's at the heart of it I mean? Can anyone who is a regular on the political threads, or anyone "in the know" , kindly explain to me what is going on please?

I always get anxious when there is talk of governmental interference with the civil service as they are all we have to rely on, when, as now, the elected government of the day is less than trustworthy and/ or incompetent.

Is it, as a recent Independent article implies, a ploy to distract the public from the fact that poor investment and low level resources, not to mention Covid plus Brexit, lie at the heart of most of the problems associated with passport, tax, DVLA delays, the prison service, asylum claims, and I imagine the number of civil servants required in the MoD has risen since Putin invaded Ukraine?

Or is it the fact that Rees-Smugg can't make a success of his post- Brexit promoting role simply because the reality is that Brexit is proving to be a disaster in terms of the economy and trade, so he is making headlines about something else?

Or is it, most worryingly for me, given Boris's lack of respect for the UK's system of government, and of the UK constitution as a whole, how he almost casually prorogued parliament, how he lies in the HofC, is there something more sinister going on?

[I am a long-term poster, interested in UK and EU politics, not a journo.]

OP posts:
User135644 · 14/05/2022 12:47

Sunnyshoeshine · 14/05/2022 11:11

@morescrummythanyummy this is the unintended consequence of removing pay increments / pay scales. No pay rises for years, no way to move up in the band so the only way to earn more is to get promoted and promoted until you end up with senior people but without the knowledge or experience to back it up. We definitely need to encourage people spending more time doing sideways moves and getting depth of experience but its so hard when all anyone wants is more money.

Show quote history

All anyone cares about is working towards their next promotion which in offices basically mean making sure your face fits and being in with the bosses rather than your output, or being able to write the right competency (made up or not) and talk the talk in an interview.

Original poster
Calafsidentity · 14/05/2022 12:46

I suppose my thoughts are turning now to what can be done?

I understand from reading the news, that some branches of the civil service are planning to strike?

Other than supporting their stance, and being patient about delivery times of passports and driving licences etc, what can an ordinary member of the public do to support the besieged civil service? I suppose voting this government out in May 2024, if not before, is the most important thing? But that seems quite a long time away. Boris (aka the greased piglet) can't possibly last that long can he?

OP posts:
Original poster
Calafsidentity · 14/05/2022 12:35

Op here - still reading with interest - very much appreciate everyone's input.

It's all a bit bleak isn't it?

OP posts:
Sunnyshoeshine · 14/05/2022 11:11

morescrummythanyummy · 13/05/2022 21:07

@leotardrock

Great! Well done you! Unfortunately not my experience, esp with fast streamers who have been overpromoted because they are great at trotting out competencies in interviews and move on a lot. Everyone seems pretty terrified to try actually getting rid of people with crap appraisal scores (lateness by comparison is easy) and just tries to move them.

I agree most CS are dedicated and hard working, which is why it annoys me!

@morescrummythanyummy this is the unintended consequence of removing pay increments / pay scales. No pay rises for years, no way to move up in the band so the only way to earn more is to get promoted and promoted until you end up with senior people but without the knowledge or experience to back it up. We definitely need to encourage people spending more time doing sideways moves and getting depth of experience but its so hard when all anyone wants is more money.

User135644 · 14/05/2022 09:28

I think all public sector jobs at the moment are a thankless task as you'll be hammered either by the public for government incompetence, or by the government themselves. This applies whether you work for the NHS, the police, your local authority or the civil service. Morale is low across the board.

The government obsession (i.e. their donors and cronies obsession like the Daily Mail owner) over the war on WFH just compounds it.

User135644 · 14/05/2022 09:01

Civil Service is the new EU. Scapegoats for government incompetence.

Porcupine32 · 14/05/2022 08:56

This is all so disappointing. I’ve just been made a formal offer to join the CS, I’ll be retraining and leaving a industry that I’m quite successful in but is greatly impacting my mental and physical health. I’ve been so excited about the fresh start, hybrid working and just being able to get my head down and do the job and now I’m wondering if it’s worth it

Kendodd · 13/05/2022 21:50

Didn't they used to send Brexit impact assessments back to civil servants to be rewritten because they were too negative? In other words wanting them to make up stuff.

DowningStreetParty · 13/05/2022 21:39

It’s so cynical, pure Tory dog whistling to distract everyone from their chaotic, corrupt, shameful mess of a government. Of course they can’t stand the civil servants. Always pointing out the reality of the situation to ministers, that they don’t want to hear..

At no point does JRM or Johnson say how the savings made by sacking these people will actually be used to help anyone suffering in the cost of living crisis, which apparently necessitates these cuts.. it’s just depressing.

Kendodd · 13/05/2022 21:31

leotardrock · 13/05/2022 21:29

But Kendodd that's not the Civil Servants fault - that's Government Policy!

I know.

Kendodd · 13/05/2022 21:30

Call me cynical but I think -
Government make massive cuts to civil service and outsource the work to private companies owned by cronies or donors at massively increased costs. Oh, and cronies companies, they'll be shit at doing the job but who cares as long as someone gets rich.

leotardrock · 13/05/2022 21:29

But Kendodd that's not the Civil Servants fault - that's Government Policy!

leotardrock · 13/05/2022 21:25

Agreed!

I also think public option of civil servants is really low atm!

It's low at the best of times but with the Downing St parties everyone thinks we're on cheese & wine & bring a bottle 5 days a week!

Kendodd · 13/05/2022 21:25

Supersimkin2 · 13/05/2022 17:46

All big institutions are wasteful, so the civil service won’t be any different. Efficiency drives are always a good idea.

(Eg Bits of the Home Office don’t work at all. Cf Ukraine visas.)

Efficiency drives make the Govt look great when everyone’s skint and struggling. Cabinet can swerve helping us but look sympathetic.

Completely agree about pointless 'Home for Ukraine ' visas.
Just drop the requirement for a Visa like every other country in Europe.
Just saved the government a mountain of unnecessary work right there.

Ablababla · 13/05/2022 21:18

I think the intention is to reduce the civil service compensation scheme which is pretty generous at the moment. That requires primary legislation so will take a while. They failed at this the last time they tried. Tricky to intro this session. They have v limited amount of time to change the law and push through a mass redundancy programme before the GE.

it’s silly headlines innit. They might achieve those kind of figures if they did wholesale privatisation of something big. Look how well that worked out for the probation service. You probably pay the people doing the work less but you also have to pay the outsourcing companies shareholders/owners a whacking great profit.

one thing I can absolutely guarantee If that this exercise will save absolutely no money whatsoever and will probably end up costing the taxpayer more.

leotardrock · 13/05/2022 21:12

Morescrummy I've not had much to do with the fast streamers - but what dealings I have had haven't been positive - so maybe you are right about them!

MrsSkylerWhite · 13/05/2022 21:10

Rees-Mogg has found himself in a position he could never have dreamed of, in sane times.

if he thinks it’s a good thing, I’m against it.

morescrummythanyummy · 13/05/2022 21:07

@leotardrock

Great! Well done you! Unfortunately not my experience, esp with fast streamers who have been overpromoted because they are great at trotting out competencies in interviews and move on a lot. Everyone seems pretty terrified to try actually getting rid of people with crap appraisal scores (lateness by comparison is easy) and just tries to move them.

I agree most CS are dedicated and hard working, which is why it annoys me!

icelolly12 · 13/05/2022 21:02

He;s probably also 1. justifying his own job 2. trying to stand out and be bold now the the ship is sinking and Rishi has drowned and Boris is floundering maybe he's hoping he'll be the saviour

leotardrock · 13/05/2022 20:46

Maybe I have been lucky but I really do find the comments about 'dead wood' etc really offensive! From my experience all surplus jobs were cut years ago!

It used to be we were paid less because we had more work life balance, but in my Dept that is long gone!
I work long hours, no lunch, I've cancelled leave to meet ridiculous deadlines.

UnaOfStormhold · 13/05/2022 20:42

I suspect he's inspired by P&O's example. Or fed up that civil servants are having to deal with the downsides of Brexit and struggling to come up with substantial upsides for him to crow about.

leotardrock · 13/05/2022 20:38

And I have worked 17 years in one Dept & 14 in another!

leotardrock · 13/05/2022 20:36

Ha ha ! That was too long! 99% of the people I have worked really hard & do their best every single day!

leotardrock · 13/05/2022 20:34

morescrummythanyummy · 13/05/2022 19:56

Firstly, the small state point has been made- tories love the idea of this and seem to have no issue with the fact that when devolved to private sector it might go wrong / money can leak out in profit etc.

Secondly, the civil service is an easy scapegoat for the fact that our politicians (tories and tbh Labour too, though they aren't in power) have no real policies to fix the things

Thirdly, the civil service is a bit bloated in places, given people hired to do things that were needed in the pandemic. I actually think that the state should do more and we should privatise less, but obviously having a bigger state because you have people doing jobs that are obsolete is the worst of all worlds. In addition, the CS don't sack anyone - PP has said this is because they can't pay people off, but whilst true private sector companies are not flinging money at anyone they want to get rid of (especially before 2 years) and the reason that people don't get performance managed properly (people can get a very low appraisal score and the solution is never them leaving or being demoted - you have to give them more training or promote/sideways move them) is because of the unions (I don't hate unions, btw, they are necessary. It's just that you do sometimes need to grow a spine and performance manage people, if only because it is extremely demotivating for others to have less money or prospects than crappier workers and/or to pick up the slack). Unfortunately, reducing headcount in the CS will usually mean voluntary redundancy, which means that usually those who are good at their job but nearing retirement or who would get paid more in the private sector take redundancy and leave and those who are rubbish cling on because they know they have a good number!

I don't know which Dept you work in but I have sacked a Civil Servant, all you need to do as a line manager is follow the policy!
Also every new entrant now is on 6 months probation & if they don't meet the standards of conduct attendance & performance they are out!

Performance Management yes the first step is more training & development but if they still don't improve then it's formal and again if you follow the procedure they are out!

Mine was an attendance issue - at first you think omg this will go on forever but if they are taking the piss, they genuinely can't help themselves & it all snowballs quite quickly - if you follow the procedures!

In my 30 years in the civil service 99.9% of the people I have known have worked really hard & with integrity!

morescrummythanyummy · 13/05/2022 19:57

Sorry "to fix the things" was supposed to be "to fox the things that matter to people! Like housing, the care system etc.

Swipe left for the next trending thread