How is Sovereignity working out for you?

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@rrhuth,

So the rise in the investment bankers’ remuneration (current first year analyst average income £86k) was all based on productivity, and yet, despite the increase in driving and monitoring technology, HGV drivers’ productivity has been static for years…

And wage growth was clearly not capped by cheap Eastern European labour? It is just that they work harder than the ‘lazy’ Brits who would not be prepared to do the job for any salary or working conditions.

Meanwhile, back in the real world, a balanced article from a very pro EU group of economists:

cebr.com/reports/the-times-labour-shortage-is-forcing-pay-up-but-how-long-can-it-last/[/quote]
In many of the lowest paid sectors it is very hard to raise productivity due to the nature of the work. Driving and monitoring technology will only make marginal differences as productivity is limited mainly by the speed of deliveries. Producity will not increase much until we replace drivers with fully autonomous vehicles.

Similarly in the care sector you can't make many efficiencies and raise productivity much as it is so labour intensive. In retail there might be more scope e.g moving to a model more like lidl with lower staffing. You can see this happening in many supermarkets with the loss of deli and butchery staff.

Ultimately increased productivity leads to the loss of many jobs e.g strawberry picking becomes automated. Whether or not this is a bad thing depends on your perceptive. Long term there may be a rational for a universal basic income to replace these jobs.

In the short term a labour shortage will put many smaller UK companies which are unable to afford to invest in upskilling or productivity out of business. This is expected in parts of the food production industry and will result in greater imports and food insecurity.

[quote Zeropointzero]@blacksax.you are one of the people,who order fish and chips when in a restaurant in spain and complain that the spanish dont speak english.little englander.[/quote]
How rude. And so very wrong in every respect.

@ssd 🤞

@rrhuth,

Germany has done extraordinarily well out of the Euro (not the EU per se), to the cost of the Southern European nations.

They have had the advantage of an exchange rate very favourable to their GDP, compared to the Southern Europeans who have suffered under the yoke (good word) of a currency which hobbled their industry and agriculture.

I think 'free of the yoke' is one of my fave brexiteer phrases

I see Germany is crippled by that yoke!

We didn't need to leave the EU to address inequality. UK had the worst inequality in the EU, because of domestic political choices. Leaving the EU won't change those domestic choices.

[quote TheReluctantPhoenix]@rrhuth,

So the rise in the investment bankers’ remuneration (current first year analyst average income £86k) was all based on productivity, and yet, despite the increase in driving and monitoring technology, HGV drivers’ productivity has been static for years…

And wage growth was clearly not capped by cheap Eastern European labour? It is just that they work harder than the ‘lazy’ Brits who would not be prepared to do the job for any salary or working conditions.

Meanwhile, back in the real world, a balanced article from a very pro EU group of economists:

cebr.com/reports/the-times-labour-shortage-is-forcing-pay-up-but-how-long-can-it-last/[/quote]
I'm opposed to that type of rise in high earners' wages personally, and in shareholder payments.

If you trust Johnson and Rees Mogg to deliver a high-wage German-style economy, that's your right. Important to note Germany has EU migrants aplenty. Almost as if immigration is not the real issue, just a red herring to get support for Brexit...

My view is the same as pre-referendum - Brexit will be bad for the British economy and the brunt of the negative impacts will be felt most keenly by families at the bottom of the income scale.

@rrhuth

‘This chaotic Brexit restructure is not going to increase wealth or reduce inequality.’

You are linking two things that are not necessarily linked. It probably won’t increase gdp (in fact, it will probably cost a few % over 10 years).

However, globalisation clearly delivers all the productivity gains to the highest earners, especially the top quintile. This has been true in the UK and the US (dependent on cheap Hispanic labour).

Across the rest of Europe, the picture is more mixed as the lowest GDP migrant workers have a language and culture barrier to penetrate.

We may be a few percent poorer on average, but the lower paid workers, who were out-competed by migrants, prepared to work for poverty wages (as they could transfer this money home), may be a lot better off.

Whether you see this as a good or bad thing is subjective (as seen on these threads!).

Shite. It’s all shite. The UK deserves to be covered in shite. We voted Tory and we voted brexit (I didn’t vote for either of those but overall we did)

@rrhuth,

So the rise in the investment bankers’ remuneration (current first year analyst average income £86k) was all based on productivity, and yet, despite the increase in driving and monitoring technology, HGV drivers’ productivity has been static for years…

And wage growth was clearly not capped by cheap Eastern European labour? It is just that they work harder than the ‘lazy’ Brits who would not be prepared to do the job for any salary or working conditions.

Meanwhile, back in the real world, a balanced article from a very pro EU group of economists:

cebr.com/reports/the-times-labour-shortage-is-forcing-pay-up-but-how-long-can-it-last/

Also important to consider tight-margin businesses e.g. care homes. Two have gone bust in my local area. What happens to the residents?

The market can't just sort these things out in a chaotic way. I'm not a laissez-faire economy fan as people lose livelihoods and services.

If there's a shortage of care workers, and wages rise, then government needs to pay more for care, affecting council budgets.

Trying to portray anyone who is worried we are in for economic pain as somehow not supporting low wage workers - that's bollocks. This chaotic Brexit restructure is not going to increase wealth or reduce inequality.

It isn't going to be one off.

There are labour shortages across the economy.

If we plug them by raising wages people move sector, driving up prices in other sectors. Driving up inflation.

I have no issue with planned wage rises, they are not the same.

Reluctant interesting post one off wage increase may not be a big factor. I’d welcome changes in working conditions now it’s in the spotlight as it seems for many it’s an issue.

Inflation is more likely to happen due to energy increase which may well not be absorbed by profit margins. There’s no cap for business and they seem to have a lot of increases at same time.

Some of this is hitting globally (energy) others not as much (shipping to some degree?)

Also - there's a big difference between a pay rise due to productivity increase and pay rises due to chasing a small pool of workers. These are economic facts. I know brexiteers don't believe in facts, but they are what they are.

If you say so @TheReluctantPhoenix

I see there are bus routes being cut in Suffolk now as the drivers leave to be hgv drivers. So the calm, organised Brexit transition continues to progress well.

Keep swallowing the Johnson lies that this chaos was all part of a plan.

@rrhuth et al,

It is a ridiculous argument that bargaining power does not make workers richer, as it causes inflation, particularly put by one who claims to be economically knowledgeable.

Firstly, increased wages only leads to inflation if it can be passed on to consumers. If not, it just cuts profit margins.

Secondly, it will only lead to zero net gain if the increased wages are uniformly spread over the entire economy, something that is clearly not the case.

Thirdly, if certain jobs get a deserved one off uplift in pay, it causes a one off inflationary shock, which rapidly passes through the system.

I suspect that you do not use this argument when you discuss your salary with your boss!

Somehow, if it is lorry drivers getting an extra £5k per annum, this is inflationary, but when it is investment bankers, consultants, FTSE board members (who have enjoyed massive rises due to globalisation) it is all about rewarding the talent and seems to ‘have little input into inflation.

The hypocrisy about one of the benefits of Brexit, regardless of whether you view Brexit as a negative overall, is startling. And real economists (who put their names to their views), whom I am happy to link to, admit that Brexit has (to some, unexpectedly) benefited many low paid workers.

In 20 years when there is a campaign to go back in, I hope the campaign is stronger!

Are you imagining a revival of the days of empire?

Now it’s well on the way to insignificance, and the EU is well rid of it.

One of the biggest lies sold was that our immigrant labour was unskilled work that could be done by the multitude of work shy Brits playing the system.

Brexit robbed an aging UK of young, skilled workers.

@Zeropointzero

An utter mess and lies and BS.

It's a shit show. It was always going to be a shit show. No surprises here.

It's also no surprise that Brexit voting arseholes are refusing to own it. Even if the fuel crisis / HGV lorry crisis and energy crisis would all point to being partially cause by brexit.