I have never felt so bleak

And let's not forget - we had a pretty dismal choice at the last election:

A man who would bankrupt the country with his clueless mis-handing of any crisis ........... or Jeremy Corbyn.

I'd have voted for the Downing Street cat over either of them.

One can only hope that one day the whole country will see Johnson for what he really is.

But even if he was caught shagging the Downing Street cat some sections of the Tory media would find a reason to excuse him.

So you have already left the UK, moved to Ireland, and yet are still in despair.

Then the thing to do is to come home and stand for office. Get out there and explain to/convince people that belonging to the EU and having a more socialist model is better.

Because all those people who voted Tory did so with the best of intentions and within a democratic model. Debate is essential. Having a positive conversation is far better than sitting off stage somewhere feeling down.

@Tiggertogger

I really dislike these utterly useless posts. If you can't say anything positive or supportive why bother wasting your time upsetting someone you don't even know.

I've got a fabulous job and I know exactly where the OP is coming from.

If Labour had withdrawn the whip from any of their MP’s to ensure it got what the leader wanted I would have the same opinion.

30 Labour MP’s voted against their leader’s wishes and are still in the party.

Johnson voted against his party a couple of times (I think) and is still in the party.

Throwing out long serving MP’s like Ken Clark and Nicholas Soames is just so cynical.

MPs are not delegates from their constituencies, which means their actions are governed by their determination to in the best interests of their constituency, their party and the country as a whole. They may decide they want to follow their leader, but until now they didn't have to.

Johnson has blown that apart, they have no choice if they want to be an MP.

ThePlantsitter

I don't like that you are insinuating you are reasonable and I am hysterical by what you choose to engage with and misrepresent.
But it is you who insinuated I was reasonable, not me.
So you're saying that what I am choosing to engage with is portraying me as reasonable...?

You are painting yourself as non partisan
Not at all. I am open with my views. This thread is about OP feeling bleak and their despair. One doesn't have to hold any view on any particular side to offer help to someone who feels bleak and in despair. Or do you think someone must hold only your views to be able to try and assist another experiencing despair?

but you are not willing to broach the subject of the fact our prime minister broke the law for his own ends
I addressed Vote Leave of which he was part, which is what you were talked about. Do you still think the election is a result of Vote Leave's actions, and absolutely nothing else?

By painting yourself as the teacher to us all
Your perception seems to be as me a teacher. That's your choice. Maybe that's because you have something to learn?

No. I don't like that you are insinuating you are reasonable and I am hysterical by what you choose to engage with and misrepresent.

You are painting yourself as non partisan but you are not willing to broach the subject of the fact our prime minister broke the law for his own ends and has lied so many times it's not even worth numbering them. That he is already reneging on his electoral promises (eg living wage). You're discounting those facts as opinion. They are not.

You're a good rhetorician, I'll give you that. By painting yourself as the teacher to us all you're giving a really good demonstration of how oppressive regimes take hold and are perpetuated by good citizens. No critical thinking people! Everything will be OK!

ThePlantsitter
I find your tone patronising in the extreme and your arguing style reframes what I say as hysterical and what you say as reasonable.

So you don't like that you feel I am coming across as reasonable, and you are coming across as hysterical...?

By saying 'try not to load your position onto others from the outset' that is exactly what you are doing yourself both in condescending tone and presumptive content. It is maddening.

What position exactly am I loading onto you by recommending you listen to people and don't assume what they know, and don't exaggerate what they say?

Vote Leave was found to have broken electoral law, yes, as were the GMB and Unison, the Remain campaign Best For our Future and the Liberal Democrats.

So, as I already pointed to you, we haven't reached here through just the Vote Leave contravention you stated. As I said, there are many, many reasons that did. Picking one, focusing on that only, and ignoring reality isn't good for anyone's mental health.

Devereux1 of course I'm still here. I find your tone patronising in the extreme and your arguing style reframes what I say as hysterical and what you say as reasonable.

Boris Johnson has lied and broken the law. The leave campaign has lied and broken the law. Both proven. We are where we sre because laws have been broken with no consequences. Those are facts and therefore the truth.

By saying 'try not to load your position onto others from the outset' that is exactly what you are doing yourself both in condescending tone and presumptive content. It is maddening.

It doesn't matter what I think because we are where we are. Presenting fact as point of view is what got us here.

I'm thinking about getting more involved in politics at grass roots rather than complaining on Facebook and to friends and family.

Would that work for you?

ThePlantsitter

Just in case you see this, since you mentioned your mental health, I stand by my post completely.

Arguing against people when one is loaded with pre-conceived ideas is maddening and useless to do, and must be even more maddening in one's head to do in the first place!

Even your belief which you state as a point of fact, is a great example of this: The truth is we reached the point of this election because politicians told lies and broke the law and that has been ignored.

It's not "the truth" is it? It's your personal view. We reached this election because of lots of reasons, not just what you feel.

Try and not load your position onto others from the outset. Listen to what they say, don't rephrase what they say using exaggerating language (I didn't say "squash how she's feeling", did I?), and you'll find your interaction with the world will improve.

I meant the second. The truth is we reached the point of this election because politicians told lies and broke the law and that has been ignored.

What I mean is that telling the OP to squash how she's feeling and make her peace with others' opinions, as you suggested, is not necessarily the right course of action if her moral sense is telling her otherwise.

I just wrote a long post explaining my position but deleted it and am now bowing out of this conversation as it is not good for my mental to get into these threads on mumsnet and I keep doing it!!

ThePlantsitter
But there comes a point when people are voting for things that should not be accepted as 'point of view'.
Who decides this Plantsitter?
It's a personal decision isn't it.

I'm confused. Your first post suggested you didn't think people should be allowed to vote on some subjects which were deemed unacceptable as a 'point of view'. Do you mean that? Or do you just mean each individual can view someone else's point of view as unacceptable?

It’s inky!! It’s only their views that count.

Every government we have had since time immemorial puts its own agenda into legislation with a majorly government! This isn’t new.

What is new is the idea that MPs have to have a mandate from their constituents for every vote. They are not directly representative of constituency residents. How can they know their views? Many constituencies get 66% turnout. Even with a majorly of those voting for the MP, that doesn’t mean, and cannot mean, it’s inky their views that count.

I strongly suggest some people on here need to study political systems in the UK to understand the relationship between MPs and their constituencies and their role in Parliament. Throughout history the defeated party’s supporters have been fearful. However at the moment the defeated party is too far left and not promoting policies that a majority can support. They must change and take back the middle ground especially to represent the aspirational.

.....they are no longer a representative of their constituency.

When all the Remain MPs were failing to represent the views of their Leave constituencies, we were told they didn't have to.

The Brexit Bill will go through, with at least an 80 vote majority. As all Tory MP’s have pledged to support The Great Leader, there’s no need for Parliament to meet at all. Is there?

It's the job of government to put into effect the policies they were elected on.
If Labour had got in with an 80 seat majority, would it have been ok for them to use that majority to push through policies and legislation that non-Labour voters didn't agree with?

But there comes a point when people are voting for things that should not be accepted as 'point of view'.
Who decides this Plantsitter?

It's a personal decision isn't it. For me, I can accept 5 years of a government I don't agree with if it just means 5 years of pitiful investment in schools, playgrounds, the nhs and so on. I don't like it but i accept it as democratic.

What I don't and won't accept is when this stuff endangers life like the benefit sanctions carried out by this government have been shown to. When the prime minister lies and uses illegal procedures like proroguing Parliament to get what he wants. When racist language is being used by that same prime minister and racist abuse rises in the population as a result. When immigrants who have lived here years and paid taxes here are ousted unceremoniously.

Boris johnson cheats, lies and breaks the law. I will not accept that he is 'people's prime minister' or try to understand the point of view of racist liars. You wouldn't marry someone who'd repeatedly cheated or employ someone who'd lied and broken the law. I don't accept that Boris Johnson taking us out of the EU and then doing whatever the fuck he likes to achieve his right wing agenda is a matter of opinion and I haven't seen anything that suggests it's ok or it will be ok. These things creep up slowly on us unless we notice and stop it.

Maybe it's too late and the country's fucked anyway. But I don't have to accept that as a 'different point of view'.

If there had been any coherent argument about how boris johnson or Brexit was actually going to benefit the majority of people in the country I would be more inclined to cry for a balanced view but there really, really hasn't.

I say all that as someone whose income is in the top 10% ish of the country, too.

Is this a joke? You don't even live in the UK.

The Brexit Bill has just been passed in Parliament with a big majority - something else to add to your pity party.

Devereux1

Brilliant post.

Apparently the strength of our democracy is every five years (at the moment) we get the chance to vote to elect our MP. If the MP loses their seat, then they leave Parliament and can no longer have influence there. Unless you're Zac Goldsmith, loses seat but goes to Lords to continue being a minister. That’s not democratic.

The Brexit Bill will go through, with at least an 80 vote majority. As all Tory MP’s have pledged to support The Great Leader, there’s no need for Parliament to meet at all. Is there? MP’s have to vote as they’re told, thus they are no longer a representative of their constituency.

I just hate the ignorance and xenophobia I really do

So hey are you expressing it?

I think the rabid name calling and intolerance says far more about the Labour voting Remainers than it does about Tory Leavers.

Op, Can you not get it into proportion. The UK still has all the lovely people we have always had. Nurses & carers & foster parents and volunteers.

The Labour proposition this time was too far left for most but that doesn’t mean everyone has turned into dyed in the wool tories.
The country is not full of Xenophobes and bigots although they do seem to take up more column inches than they should. Next election, things will right themselves, the balance of power will move back to centre and we will carry on as before.
British people are naturally pretty middle of the road, which is why we’ve never had a revolution. Have some faith in them

yeah, always boils down to the same irrational conclusion with these people, hence the reason they should just be left to get on with it in their own morally superior fantasy world.

Every disagreement with pro Corbyn people get assimilated into either "you are too stupid/brainwashed to understand" or "you are an evil / morally devoid / sociopathic person"

Bold fail!