Help protect children from gaming harms.

Take our survey

Please or to access all these features

Politics

If Russia rigged Brexit - surely we'd have to vote again?

37 replies

raisinsarenottheonlyfruit · 02/12/2017 15:36

So the Trump-Russia scandal is unravelling before our eyes.

Flynn has plead guilty today to relatively minor charges because he's dished the dirt on his superiors. His superiors are only - Trump or the vice president (or both of them). This is going tits up for them.

Seth Abramson (American attorney) tweeted

"Putin's election interference, as Harding notes, was part of a years-long campaign to destroy the EU, NATO, and, yes, the United States. Complicity in that campaign is complicity in an attempt by Putin to reinstate the Cold War and demolish Western democracy. It's that big."

We're also learning that the extent of the Russian bots on Facebook and Twitter attempting to influence opinion on Brexit -
urging people to vote leave - was huge.

If Russia influenced the vote then it wasn't the will of the people - was it?

This sounds like a conspiracy theory but It's not - this is mainstream news! (Catch newsnight later to hear Seth Abramson's analysis of Trump or read his Twitter account here

At what point do we accept our political process was corrupted?

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
susanlawrence · 29/08/2018 16:14

I agree! Need to get the word out even more I guess

Jayfee · 29/08/2018 15:32

I will take a look. I am really confused that if apparently 4 million people want a referendum on the final Brexit deal, why less than 800,000 people have signed Christian Broughton Editor of the Independent newspaper's online Final Say petition at Change.org???

susanlawrence · 29/08/2018 15:01

Jayfee, you should get involved with the Renew party, a new anti-Brexit party, they're putting a lot of effort into resisting and fighting Brexit and have a lot of big supporters

www.renewparty.org.uk

Jayfee · 20/08/2018 22:31

I would like a revote so have signed the change.org petition called final say. Hoping enough people sign for us to get a say.

MissionItsPossible · 17/01/2018 12:15

I think Sheldon was being sarcastic in countenance to the argument peddled by Remainers that "We need another referendum because Leave voters are all old and some have died by now" which doesn't make sense when the other argument is that Russia interfered in the elections via Twitter bots and people that use it were duped. 18-29 year olds make up 35% of Twitter's demographic. 65+ make up 5%. Both statements together doesn't make sense.

falang · 14/01/2018 12:36

yes old people use twitter. Some are stupid. Some not. Just like there are stupid people on mumsnet infinitesheldon. I saw far, far more tweets urging people to vote stay on Twitter and on Facebook than I saw telling people to leave.

falang · 14/01/2018 12:30

They didn't so we won't

Askyourself · 14/01/2018 11:20

What gardengeek said about Facebook and everything being filed with momentum and labour actually is a very good point. I believe there is a lot more to that than people are looking at. Forget the brexit vote stuff, there won’t be another vote and Russia I believe doesn’t care either way.

Putin has repeatedly made it clear he wants to be remembered as an iron man of Russia and wants to be the one that restores the USSR. But how could he do this without risking nuclear war?

As it stands if Russia wanted to grab Eastern Europe back it knows it would have to take the whole of Europe. Not actually a bad plan and in terms of military forces, they more than have the superior numbers and ability. They’d have pockets of resistance in Poland and other countries, but on the whole it would be a cake walk. But then there’s the British, under current and previous governments we would fight, we would lose as we don’t have the numbers and eventually tactical nukes would be the only way, which would lead to all out nuclear war, at which point the Americans would join in and everything would go to shit. So that’s not a good plan, back to square one.

Plan B, create unrest and decent within US and European countries so everyone is looking to themselves and can’t agree on a thing internally or as a group. Then test people’s resolve for another war by grabbing part or all of Ukraine back and see what people do. Funnily enough nobody did anything. Wow the stage is nearly set, maybe putin can get away with taking Europe and as long as no one uses a nuke, US is not going to get involved as it knows fighting Russia will end up in a nuke war. US will condemn Russia but will let it happen. But then there’s the British problem, they use nukes, so damn the plan will fail. Unless they can find some way in which UK won’t use them. Wait a minute, all we need is a party leader who’s a socialist/communist, who is a staunch anti nuclear and anti war/military person, who would never go to war or nuke anything even if it meant the total destruction of their own country.

So a few years of manipulation later, Kremlin’s perfect man appears and is catipulted from obscurity to the head of the Labour Party. Now all we need to do is create more and more unrest in British politics, help momentum and the likes secretly through social media, and he’ll get elected.

Then there would not be a better time to act on the plan, with the current labour leadership and mayor of London hating US and destroying relations, we’d be left to our own fate.

Far fetched? Or actually a very good logical plan. Russia is poor, has an economy not much larger than Sweden. Europe is beyond wealthy by comparison and Putin would be like Stalin or other great leaders from Russia.

I’m not normally a tin pot helmet person, but this seems to be a possibility. Just to be clear, I’m not saying corben is in on the plan. I just think he was too perfect for them not to help along the way.

It’s how I’d do it if I was Putin

CarolynWhite · 11/01/2018 10:29

'Russian threat' is fraught with NATO disintegration

image.ibb.co/nQ0YhR/beam.jpg

It can be said that this is already a reality now.

Despite mantras about unity and solidarity, the very NATO cohesion ceased to exist years ago. Only the Baltic States and such eastern European countries like Poland express their full support for anti-Russian views. Some members of the Alliance are in favor of re-establishing the dialogue with Russia while Turkey actually interacts with it at jumping-off ground for military actions in Syria and develops active military-technical cooperation with Russia by entering into a contract for the supply of the S-400 missile systems. NATO leadership, represented by its Secretary General, expresses public interest in close contacts with the Chief of the General Staff of Russian Armed Forces, as well as, in expanding the practice of mutual briefings. And judging by the tone and attitudes of Jens Stoltenberg, this is not simply a matter of 'having a cup of tea and talking'.

Washington's grand statements referring to the 'principal' impossibility of dialogue on the normalization of relations with Russia without solving Ukraine's problems are a bit out of tune. That is just such a trend inside NATO now. I mean the situation when the lion's share of anti-Russian rhetoric comes solely from the USA. Moreover, some statements of player characters on the US military-political scene demonstrate the interest in escalating confrontation with Moscow and driving the situation to a critical level. The USA, through its Secretary of State Rex Tillerson, warns its allies of the danger of any advance to contact with Russia without Washington's authorization, threatening even to exclude them from the Alliance if they do not obey.

Could it be stated, based on the above, that there is a split within the North-Atlantic Alliance? Not quite yet, I think. But that is the way things are going. If in the near future the USA does not change negotiation tactics with its European partners, there will be crisis.

The thing is that Europe is tired of following US strict dictates. Countries of old Europe aspire to be more independent. They are long concerned about establishment of own armed forces that could fully substitute NATO. Moreover, a number of influential European politicians even leave open the possibility of creating common Russian-European military defense systems in emphasizing that Russia and Europe are not geopolitical enemies while they face common threats.

It should be understood, however, that in the foreseeable future the changes in relations between NATO and Russia are impossible. And none of the rest of it matters. NATO military alliance is interested in deepening the crisis in the relations with Russia as now it is the only argument that underlines the importance and usefulness of NATO for the Western World. There needs to be an enemy for this military alliance to exist. And now it is Russia.

That is why the United States are so enthusiastic inventing many new threats against which supposedly only North-Atlantic Alliance with its number one 'Russian threat' on the list can protect Europe. Thus, the USA sets the general direction of the NATO anti-Russian vector.

gwondle · 10/12/2017 08:42

It is highly likely to lead to another referendum, mercifully, as the majority is now in favour of a second referendum.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/britons-majority-in-favour-of-public-vote-on-final-brexit-deal-uk-politics-a8089161.html

Kursk · 08/12/2017 19:29

Mookatron

Thanks, the submarine is actually named after a Russian town.

I pick user names by spinning a globe!

raisinsarenottheonlyfruit · 08/12/2017 14:57

To be honest, it just proves how fundamentally weak democracy is in an age of hyper-propaganda and post-modernism.

This ^ and this vvv are issues of major importance in our society IMO

People are arrogant and hate to admit they were duped / wrong.

But we we don't discuss them because those in power have been quite happy with having the media as their proaganda tool. Only problem for them now is, they're losing control of the reins. It's comeing back to bite them (and us) as they've positively encouraged a society in which people are politically illiterate and content with sound bites instead of demanding politicians put their cards-on-the-table about the ideologies they believe in.

OP posts:
Mookatron · 08/12/2017 14:25

Interesting username Kursk... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_submarine_Kursk_(K-141)

InfiniteSheldon · 08/12/2017 14:22

I think the press coverage was positively Orwellian in its Remain bias it was all Project Fear nonsense and Obama waving his willy.

AndhowcouldIeverrefuse · 06/12/2017 16:46

Agree that the bias on the UK press is remarkable. What is middle ground in the UK (Daily Mail) would be right or far right in many democracies.

I remember reading on here that the Leave campaign would be studied in years to come. There was dodgy stuff going on and it was obvious to everyone who used the Internet and social media. On MN every referendum thread would be taken over by a few posters spouting leave slogans completely ignoring other posters until threads were abandoned. I saw the most barefaced lies on my Facebook feed. The press was in full frenzy.

I must admit that I thought it would be a good few years before all this would be studied and investigated. It's interesting that the whole financing of the leave campaign is unravelling now. I don't think it will lead to another referendum though. People are arrogant and hate to admit they were duped / wrong.

MephistophelesApprentice · 06/12/2017 16:41

To be honest, it just proves how fundamentally weak democracy is in an age of hyper-propaganda and post-modernism.

Childrenofthestones · 06/12/2017 16:36

OP - "So the Trump-Russia scandal is unravelling before our eyes"

Meanwhile
NEW YORK — Suspended ABC News reporter Brian Ross will no longer cover stories involving President Donald Trump following his erroneous report last Friday on former national security adviser Michael Flynn.
www.usatoday.com/story/money/media/2017/12/05/abc-says-ross-no-longer-cover-stories-involving-trump/923132001/

cdtaylornats · 06/12/2017 08:10

Millions of computers in the UK run Russian anti-virus software.

You know who else uses data mining - supermarkets.

Postagestamppat · 05/12/2017 05:50

There was a very good - if convoluted - article in the guardian about data mining and Brexit and the US election. Apparently the leave side paid millions to tech companies with Russian links:

www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy

Anyway I don't believe that we can have a true democracy in the UK because the press is so baised.

Kursk · 03/12/2017 22:33

I did vote before I left the country. I am saying that I don’t think voting means anything, as democracy in Europe is an illusion. That’s on one hand.

On the other hand we have destabilized democracy on other countries for the gain of the UK. So we cannot really complain when we taste our own medicine.

GardenGeek · 03/12/2017 21:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

raisinsarenottheonlyfruit · 03/12/2017 17:35

It doesn’t concern me that Russia influenced the vote.

Eh?

What are you saying exactly @Kursk?

Are you saying you don't care about democracy? If it's all an illusion, that's fine?
You're happy for Russia to deliberately destabilise Europe?
You don't care who wins in any election?

Do you vote?

OP posts:
raisinsarenottheonlyfruit · 03/12/2017 17:31

But yes, MrsTerryPratchett I totally agree.

OP posts:
raisinsarenottheonlyfruit · 03/12/2017 17:31

Major constitutional change based on a strict majority is bloody stupid. You'd think the people organising this would have known that.

I am at a loss as to what the people organising it thought they were doing.

It's quite funny (in a gallow humour way) to see the DUP calling "the Emporer has no clothes" at the Tories trying to say "don't worry about there not being a plan, we'll sort that out later". They're not having any of it.

OP posts:
Kursk · 03/12/2017 16:28

It doesn’t concern me that Russia influenced the vote. I am sure MI6 and the CIA rig elections all over the world. The only difference is that this time it happened to an election people cared about.

Swipe left for the next trending thread