Please can someone explain? Will we pay if we leave EU without a deal?

@AgnesSkinner

So it is as bad as I thought. No, worse because I hadn’t thought about customs and border control procedures at airports. As with most things it’s not just the contract but the operational execution. Thx for reminding me.

And Thanks for posting. I’ve gone from interested to alarmed.

Would it be unfair to say this reaffirms the general perception of complete lack of organisation at DEXEU and the government?

@RagingFemininist

Agree. Good point.

Also the U.K. has veto rights on many items. So the notion that the EC and EP have done all these things wo acquiescence from the U.K. sounds like Russian not propaganda

Also for those who think we have lost our sovereignty to the EU think again. The U.K. can veto. And Parliament is the only entity that can pass laws in the U.K. (ignoring what NI and Scotland can do). We can also opt out of stuff we don’t like - examples are the euro and Schengen.

We do get regulations from Brussels that we again are a part in developing. Example food safety.

We get directives that we need to translate into domestic law provided we have agreed them in advance. Example is TUPE.

RANT OVER.

IATA boss is pressing for clarity on post Brexit air transport:

www.travelweekly.co.uk/articles/291863/action-on-brexit-aviation-issues-is-pressing-iata-boss-warns-government

The basis of international aviation is bilateral air services agreements. There is no WTO agreement to fall back on. For that reason, I don’t see any alternative to a negotiated agreement.

Time is precious. The Brexit clock is ticking towards a deadline of March 2019. But the aviation deadline is earlier.

Normally passengers can book travel about a year in advance. At a minimum, the flight schedules and seat and cargo inventories must be available at least six months in advance. So that puts the airlines’ deadline at October 2018 – just 11 months from now.

Iata wants to see action across a broad spectrum of issues including:

• Finding staffing, systems and process solutions for a potential ballooning of customs transactions from 4.6 million/month to 21 million/month.

• Developing immigration solutions to efficiently deal with the millions of travellers between the UK and Europe should border control procedures become more cumbersome.

• Defining the relationship of the UK to the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA)

You might want remember that whatevervMEP are paid has been approved by the members states which measnhas been approved by the U.K.
And actually the U.K. has benefitted from that (salaries and pensions etc...).

So if the U.K. has an issue with that, it should have brought it to the EU and not vote for said expenses.

The EU isn’t an entity departed from the U.K. the U.K. was part of that entity and therefore is as responsible as any other member state for the costs of MEP etc etc.
Too easy to blame to EU as if we had no part to play in it, nor any influence (and the U.K. actually had a hell of a lot of influence!)

@mummmy2017

With respect to payments to be made to the EU. Many of these are already committed - for example Nigel Farage’s pension. I would love to be able to renege on paying that scoundrel his pension but unfortunately don’t see how.

Other commitments are to projects.

Then there are budgetary commitments while we are still in.

And I’m sure there will be some taking account of assets like the UK stakes in the EIB.

To me it makes perfect sense. The UK cannot just leave and not pay what it should.

And yes the EU will tell us what to to pay. We have no choice because of the UK’s massive dependency on EU institutions. I’ve been through OpenSkies and Euratom but there are other aspects. It’s not just about trade in goods.

Speaking of OpenSkies I have not heard a single thing about it. Has anyone picked up that we are speaking to the Americans (as well as the EU) about it? How will planes fly on March 30 2019?

@mummmy2017

The 45 million is not corruption. It’s part of a remuneration package. It’s publicly available information. And many companies do this - it’s called a per diem. It avoids having to have an expense policy and review lots of small receipts and make payments which requires personnel.

It’s interesting you would countenance damaging swathes of UK industry for what you consider is corruption and is plainly not.

So can we conclude that you wish to leave the EU because you are unhappy with the £250 per diem granted to MEPs?

Anything else?

Lol. Cos Westminster MPs don't claim expenses. The alleged corruption in Brussels is a diversion.

Not heard about ATAD? It's probably the reason this whole sorry shitshow was set up. Once the anti tax avoidance directive comes into effect (in April 2019) it would be extremely expensive for a lot of the Brexit bankrollers and proponents and Tory donors. I would even have said embarrassing but none of them appear to have any shame whatsoever. Look at John Redwood.

So some MEP from, e.g. Romania just makes her own way to Brussels and represents her constituency using her own money.

751 MEP. X £250 a day expenses, x 40 weeks x 6 days...

45 Million a year, that NO ONE has to account for....
This is for housing a food , there are also other expenses they can claim, do you spend 60k with no receipts,

Just how many years has the EU be doing this ,,

MP's now have to publish their expenses... oh lets see the MEP:S voted against doing this,,, I wonder why

Let alone the private planes, the special ones uses...

Corruption... that we can see, so there will be much more behind the scene's.

The UK are not dictating the terms, have you not read the EU saying give us more money, we won't tell you what it is for yet, we just want more. truth to tell would you hand over such large amounts if it was coming out of your bank without knowing what it was for.

@mummmy2017

So I've been looking into corruption in Brussels. There are mechanisms in Brussels to look into the function of the European Commission and various EU28 countries. The European Court of Auditors and the European Anti-Fraud Office are the two main bodies. They are both independent.

I see nothing to indicate that there is corruption at the EC in the billions as accused.

I do see a lot of reports into corruption within the EU28 however.There is clearly a lot of work to do, even for the UK.

Can you point to a document that would indicate corruption at the European Commission or the European Parliament in the billions?

@mummmy2017

I’m sorry I don’t understand what you’re talking about in terms of value.

And no, you can’t determine what a company is worth from its financial statements alone as these are backward looking and a company’s value is forward looking.

@mummmy2017 and @RagingFemininist

I’m afraid there’s a lot I disagree with in what you say.

Firstly you claim that corruption in Brussels amounts to £billions. Can you prove it? I’m sure there is corruption but there’s no way to put a number in it. There are anti corruption measures however.

My point is: corruption will happen in Brussels and Westminster. Just a fact of life.

Also if corruption is so rife what are U.K. and other politicians doing to address it? I blame our politicians and our MEPs for letting it happen.

Second there seems to be this idea that the UK can dictate the terms of the negotiation to and entity that is eight times our size, has said it cares more about its principles than anything else, is organised and is competent.

Against this backdrop the U.K. does not know what it wants from the EU, does not understand the A50 process, is much smalller, more dependent on the EU than vice versa. Finally the U.K. government is completely inexperienced- it knows nothing about trade or any of the other issues that need to be resolved to extricate the U.K. from the EU.

Example: Irish border. If we leave the SM/CU there will be a hard Irish border. It is inconceivable otherwise. Yet Davis is intent on selling us a porky pie that it is. So he’s either really stupid or knows we are.

In sum there is NO WAY that the U.K. can dictate terms to the EU. saying so merely highlights the ignorance about our position vs the EU’s.

Do you work out how much the EU is worth and split it by
28 members.
by land mass.
by polulation.
by how much we pay

actually when you buy a buisness the accounts give details of how much its worth and how much someone should pay.

Indeed, it's even funded by Leave.EU!

"BBC and it's 75% bias to Remain"

Only one report has claimed that, and the organisation that produced it, News-Watch, is an anti-EU and anti-BBC group.

Obviously the Express and Mail reported it without mentioning this...

If the it’s the U.K. who is taking the decision to leave, surely that up to th U.K. to say HOW they are going to leave, incl giving proposals for how much to pay, EU citizens living in the U.K. and the border with NI.

I also thought it was a matter of negotiations.
So even if the EU was saying we want £xxx, then the U.K. wouod then be saying ‘well not that much. But £yyy’.
So as far as I can see, thenUK said £yyy and it was rejected. Just like any other negociations? (That’s why that sort of things takes time btw)
Just as a proposal from the EU would be too.

What a negotiation isn’t is the U.K. proposing a certain amount and the EU saying yes straight away.

Mummy, how about the government release the impact assessment reports? Someone sat down with a calculator and pen I suspect it’s grim reading!

David Davis is simply the figure head of the staff, he isn't sat there with his pen paper and calculator working out the details, and don't get me started on just WHY the corrupt EU have no idea of how much they want us to pay and are just Guessing and doing a Brucie and saying "HIGHER" we are not a blank cheque the EU can call on for ever, NO DEAL still sounds good to me.
Lets leave, say sod you and work from the point the EU go OH F* can we sit down and talk. as we need X Y and Z off you.

Olivia you just proved the point of all Brexiters, we are worried about the fraud, and the misuse of the money we pay into the system called the EU. it's not pennies it's Billions of pounds being misused.

Get real about being jealous of the wages paid the MEP's I know 100% I will never have this job, and if that is how you dismiss a valid reason for my wanting out of the EU, it proves we were right all along.

@mummmy2017

And James Dyson wants us out so he can fire people more easily and hopefully pay lower taxes - zero percent he said. Sounds like tax avoidance/ evasion to me !

@mummmy2017

All I can say is ‘so what’? If you want that run to be an MEP. Or mount a protest. It’s chicken feed in the overall scheme of things.

I would not be willing to risk my house and my income because I’m jealous of MEPs.

Unfortunately this is where we are coming out. David Davis is too intellectually deficient and lazy to work on developing a comprehensive roadmap out of the EU. Note I did not say a “deal” because it’s much more complicated than “a deal.” So we are headed for a disaster. Or a complete abandonment. I increasingly think the outcome is binary. We stay or we accidentally crash out.

In my mind: keep paying the MEPs and avoid disaster.

@OliviaD68
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/eu-farming-subsidies-billionaires-high-uk-rich-list-recipients-brexit-james-dyson-earl-rosebery-cap-a7815871.html

I have used the papers that are not Dailymail, or Express as they hype things up, but the Indi is one always quoted here.

www.independent.co.uk/environment/golf-courses-farming-subsidies-allotments-michael-gove-environment-secretary-cap-eu-wealthy-a7853741.html

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/09/european-commission-criticised-over-limited-expenses-disclosure

Try watching some programs about fishing, they pull in the nets, and because of the Quota per boat, fish that could be sold is thrown back, and it feeds the gulls who follow the boat, what a waste.

news.sky.com/story/meps-on-the-move-madness-of-strasbourg-shift-10293596

MEPs also get a daily subsistence allowance - now 304 euros - for attendance at parliamentary sessions. It is intended to cover things like hotel bills and meals. DAILY, so they buy a house and still claim this. Can I have over £250 a day please... no receipts needed....

@mummmy2017

You did see the report about the BBC and it's 75% bias to Remain, they were crying in the newsroom in shock when we voted Leave, you have to understand that sometimes you can't explain why you did something, just that the fact so many people agreed with me and voted out has to mean something, we can't all be wrong, even if the ones who voted remain can't accept that.

There are plenty of instances in history when entire populations have been wrong! Communism didn't work out great. Nazism either ...

So just because 52% of voters decided Brexit was a good thing - based on incomplete information - doesn't mean it is right.

And I'm not comparing Brexit to Communism or Nazism just pointing out that entire populations can have it wrong so we need to make up our own minds based on the facts.

Also if there is so much anti EU, there is no smoke without fire.

So you agree you did not know specifically why you voted Leave?

The sheer amount of Expenses, that are not accountable, that's wrong, and once we are gone, the gravy train will have to stop, as they won't have the cash to flash anymore,

Please point to such expenses and how you believe expenditures work in the EU.

the MEP's should be there to help the countries not to line their pockets, almost every MEP is now a Millionaire,

Really? Farage might be for who knows what reason. But do you know how much an MEP earns? Around €8000 per month. How do you become a millionaire from that?

they have no accountability to anyone, and voted to continue this, yet when it was the house of Lords being brought to book over expenses, there were threads on here about how corrupt this was.

Sorry but they are accountable. Why do you think they are not?

The EU has 2 parliament buildings and moves between both at massive costs, there is no real need for this, it's just one heck of a cost.

Huh? Assuming each building cost €1 billion each 1 years ago, who cares? Rounding error relative to an economic area of 500 million people.

The UK farmers are paid Not to farm, the French are paid extra to farm, hmmm.

Where does this come from? please point me to a source. Far as I know UK farmers are farming.

The rich are paid massive amounts for the above, yet the small farmers who would become profitable with more help just go out of business.

I agree there are scale economies necessary to be successful in agriculture. It's the market economy we are in. Larger farms tend to have lower average costs which allow them to sell their goods at lower prices, so good for the consumer.Smaller farmers can't compete as well that's true.

But that's true of most industries which are commoditised. I'd rather have that than the inefficiency of Soviet central planning.

Fishing, we signed over the seas, and yet we catch fish, it dies and could be landed and used, but no the budget.. is set, so it's wasted and chucked back, that is so wrong.

Don't know what this means.

The protective tarrifs are keeping food prices high, so the farmers make money and the poor suffer.

Well it is true that protectionism does raise costs. Agree with you there. But it's not just tariffs, it's agri policy and sanitary and phytosanitary standards which we benefit from.