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Politics

Please can someone explain? Will we pay if we leave EU without a deal?

580 replies

HappydaysArehere · 17/10/2017 19:53

With all this talk of billions of pounds which we are supposed to owe if we leave and talk of continuing to pay after we leave, I am in the dark. If we walk away with no deal will we pay anything like the amounts talked about? If we are able to do that surely the EU will be big losers as well as us! I am at a loss. Grateful for your input as I am bewildered. I voted to remain but must say the shenanigans being played by the EU are showing them as more like the Mafia than a democratic institution.

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Carolinesbeanies · 29/10/2017 10:13

Oh dear. Lord Mark Price has secured agreement from all EU states to roll over their existing trading terms in the event of no-deal, which is exactly what WTO allows. This is nothing to do with non-eu countries.

Back to the draining board Olivia?

OliviaD68 · 29/10/2017 10:11

@Mistigri

You are right. But EVEN assuming Mark Price is not being disingenuous or has heard what he has wanted to hear etc ... there are reasons to doubt we will be in the same position as we are today once we leave.

So it's actually easier for the sake of debate just to assume he has received such assurances. Personally, I would hope that he had. That would be 'not negative' for the UK ...

Mistigri · 29/10/2017 10:07

I do not know of Lord Mark Price but I take him at his word that politicians in the Relevant Countries would have provided assurances. I don’t see why such countries would want to raise trade barriers with the UK, so it sounds to me credible and reasonable that he did receive such assurances … from all politicians he visited.

Mark Price's line was the argument from authority. He didn't provide any evidence. He may be in a position to know things that are not in the public domain, but (i) ministers have been known to exaggerate or even lie/ mislead and (ii) in the absence of evidence we don't know when, or with what provisos, those commitments were made by the UK's counterparties.

I am not saying he is wrong; just that his former position is not an absolute warrant of his correctness, especially in the absence of any public statements from counterparties.

OliviaD68 · 29/10/2017 10:01

@Mistigri. Suppose you're right.

@Carolinesbeanies : out of goodwill, I'm going to respond to your most recent post now. But it would be great if you could return the favour and respond to our previous questions ...

Right, so here’s my reply to your post on entering into similar trade-related agreements that non-EU states currently have with the EU (let’s call them ‘Relevant Countries’ for the purposes of this post).
There are – I think – some 55 countries falling in the Relevant Country category. Many such countries have dozens of bilateral agreements and dozens of multilateral trade agreements with the EU that would need to be entered into with the UK and each Relevant Country. Such agreements, just to be clear focus on reductions in Non-Tariff Barriers which are the most relevant to trade today.

Interpreting your post …: You believe that the assurances received by Lord Mark Price – acting in his capacity as Trade Minister – from Relevant Countries are a positive thing.

My view:

  1. Such agreements with Relevant Countries currently reduce Non-Tariff Barriers. As such, they are helpful to getting closer to the nirvana of ‘free trade’, which we should all know by now does not exist other than perhaps within the EU’s Single Market.

  2. It is eminently sensible as a concept to try and copy-paste such agreements in a first instance and enhance later. Very pragmatic and quicker than redo-ing from scratch.

  3. Entering in similar agreements would not be a positive for the UK but merely manage the downside. In other words, we do not get anything more than we currently have. Rather, we ensure we don’t get less. On this basis, I agree that such assurances would be a ‘good’ thing (or - more accurately - ‘not negative’).

  4. I do not know of Lord Mark Price but I take him at his word that politicians in the Relevant Countries would have provided assurances. I don’t see why such countries would want to raise trade barriers with the UK, so it sounds to me credible and reasonable that he did receive such assurances … from all politicians he visited.

a. This is different than getting such reassurances from the trade technocrats, however. This lot are a different kettle of fish. Trade negotiators have agendas they want to push forward, especially from the US which is some 20% of our trade. We have seen this situation with Trump and Bombardier already …

b. My view is that once it comes down to talking turkey, however, the UK will experience delays from at least some Relevant Countries. Reasons for this:

i) opportunism from some countries such as, in particular, the US which is going to want to impose its regulatory standards on the UK to weaken the EU’s sphere of influence (see this testimony from Simon Lowe to Parliament here on the subject of a US-UK deal)

ii) some of these agreements are likely going to require amendment because they may have worked in the EU but don’t in the UK – eg content requirements for an item requiring 30% EU content for exports to South Korea won’t work if the export is now coming from the UK

iii) some countries appear to have indicated to the UK that they are wishing for ‘enhancements’ which will lead to further negotiation and therefore delays. Don't know if true but it sounds reasonable to expect this.

  1. There are also other practicalities slowing us down:

a. Staffing levels and experience at the DIT are low. We cannot process 55 countries, some of which have dozens of bilateral agreements with the UK all at once. Some Relevant Countries are also party to many multilateral agreements – unclear how this gets dealt with in a short timeframe, unicornesque promises notwithstanding

b. Low experience levels may lead the UK to want to deprioritise the negotiations with the US – the largest such Relevant Country – until we have cut our teeth on more willing and less influential and painful counterparties. There are good reasons to believe the US will be painful - Simon Lowe again here

c. In particular, DIT is going to rationally want and need to focus on the all-important relationship with the EU, given the relative importance to the UK economy. It’s amazing that we still don’t know what we want or should get out of this relationship. This will divert resources from dealing with Relevant Countries, sensibly so.

But I think it’s pretty clear if the EU relationship anything but SM and CU access would be strongly net negative for the UK – Rabobank report here.

d. Some such trade agreements will refer to EU regulatory standards, the EU being one of two large regulatory superpowers in relation to trade. How will the UK – without the relevant bodies to carry over such standards – apply such standards or even enter into them without having the institutions?

  1. According to Simon Lowe, we should all be reassured however. Trade agreements such as the ones we are talking about with Relevant Countries do not lead to big increases in GDP. As such, it seems reasonable to assume that we should not expect massive downside if we don’t enter into all such agreements immediately.

This is very different, however, to the situation with the EU. There, given the size of the UK’s trade exposure (esp in services), anything different to what we currently have will be damaging to the UK economy – Rabobank’s research piece concurs.

  1. There is a trade model called the Gravity Model which posits that countries tend to trade more with large economic entities that are close by than with smaller ones far away. This has been empirically proven to be the case. As such, one should not expect too much from a relationship with Australia or New Zealand or even the US given the inefficiencies - mainly moving people around - associated with such trading relationships. So we are back to needing to focus on the EU ...

In sum, whilst I would agree that such assurances provided to Lord Mark Price are ‘not negative’ (‘positive’ if you want to put a more salesy spin on it), I see significant risk in the execution.

As such, one should reasonably expect our trade position with Relevant Countries to be on balance worse than it is today, at least for a number of years. But thankfully, this would not lead to a massive downside GDP-wise.

Mistigri · 29/10/2017 09:38

Olivia You will never get straight answer, or any semblance of debate. You will get diversionary tactics usually in the form of a long post making unrelated and often inflammatory points, intended to provoke a response and move the conversation onto something else (some people will NEVER admit error or concede a point), or you will be told you don't know what you are talking about (even when you patently do have expertise on the matter - I have been lectured on areas of my own 20 year + professional expertise - the Dunning Kruger effect is strong on these boards).

OliviaD68 · 29/10/2017 07:32

Once you reply we can then dig into this latest submission and why it does or doesn’t matter.

So I think you still owe us a response on MTOs ...

OliviaD68 · 29/10/2017 07:20

@Carolinesbeanies

Not going to answer the questions?

Carolinesbeanies · 29/10/2017 03:03

Wondered where to pop this little gem, but decided M4dad had earned it on here.

This is Ed Conway, Skys Economics editor. (Perhaps from the Olivia school of economics?)

He tweeted,

"There is only one other country anywhere trading solely on WTO rules. And 1 to 17% of the population live in slavery"

The response is pure twitter gold. GrinGrin

Please can someone explain?  Will we pay if we leave EU without a deal?
Please can someone explain?  Will we pay if we leave EU without a deal?
OliviaD68 · 28/10/2017 08:53

@CardinalSin

Guess you were right. Ask for facts or supporting arguments / rationale and get silence.

Fact-free zone as the FT says.

CardinalSin · 27/10/2017 17:40

As I think you've gathered, I wouldn't hold my breath. This latest set of Brexit bots seems to have taken the route of strongly claiming "opinions" as facts, and then not backing them up. But I guess telling lies and then moving on to the next one worked well enough for them during the referendum campaign.

OliviaD68 · 27/10/2017 15:57

@CardinalSin

Wish we could laugh. You’re right that most relationship models look like they would lead to a disaster. Possibly EEA membership might not be so bad. But this has been rejected so we are not going there.

Everything else seems to lead to trade barriers being put up with all trading partners. Especially the EU which matters most.

Why? Well according to Boris it seems because this will benefit free trade.

Head scratcher right?

Maybe @Carolinesbeanies will help us understand. It’s the crux of my questions to her.

CardinalSin · 27/10/2017 14:12

I just had to laugh at Brexiteers shouting that the Norths had been discredited "by economists", when every reputable economist has declared that Brexit will be a disaster (Minford and his cronies having been thoroughly discredited themselves)!

You couldn't make it up!

OliviaD68 · 27/10/2017 13:50

www.ft.com/content/715406fc-bb0b-11e7-8c12-5661783e5589

Article in FT on release of the 50 sector reports the Govt has procured. Seems we are not the only ones to be suffering from a fact free Brexit ...

OliviaD68 · 27/10/2017 12:42

@Carolinesbeanies

One more question .. You say low growth is an EU problem. But the UK is the slowest growing economy out of the EU28. How do you explain that? Are you saying our membership in the EU is to blame for our low growth? It seems to be suiting others fine cf their higher growth relative to ours: What are we doing wrong then?

Final question: to what do you attribute our low GDP growth? My view is Brexit uncertainty is delaying investment and, as indicated above, the Consumer is not spending (bc too leveraged and inflation is up), Govt can't spend anymore bc too leveraged. And the economy is just not the export machine we would hope for. But go on: tell us your view.

@Moussemoose

Well that reassures me too. Thought I was being pigshit thick.

Moussemoose · 27/10/2017 12:35

OliviaD68

I'm glad you didn't understand the points either. I thought I had missed something important.

OliviaD68 · 27/10/2017 12:32

I didn't say MTOs were not relevant, but I questioned their relevance. Difference. I don't understand the 2 reasons. Please expand.

EU model ... What are you talking about? Like Germany's unemployment (3.7%)? Or the UK's? Or maybe the Dutch (4.8%)? Please explain. We should all have high unemployment according to your gratuitously assertive statement!

Low innovation model. I don't understand. Is the EU expressly trying to suppress innovation? How has this affected the UK?

In terms of forecasts, you seem to be right that the expectations of doom and gloom were excessive. Personally, I never understood these cliff edge doom and gloom forecasts: an economy as large as the UK's has inertia where it takes years to see effects, unless the shock is very large. And we haven't left yet. Nor do we know what leaving means. So we can only model and use logic for now. Scenario test. Might be flawed but it's the best we have.

But what worries me when I look at the GDP equation is where growth will come from: GDP = C + G + I + X - M. Consumer is in trouble. Goverment expenditures too. Investment is now down. Xports haven't really jumped even given £ drop and Mports well, haven't tapered off either ...

The single market and the CU is one such place. Disregarding the costs of our existing membership of the SM and CU is doomed to failure, and all I have to do is sit and watch as the trajectory of low growth, wage stagnation and falling market share continues. I really dont have to explain anything.

Don't understand this. How would removing ourselves from the SM and CU help our growth? How would introducing NTBs and tariffs (less important) help our growth? This is a claim that doesn't compute with me.

Moussemoose · 27/10/2017 12:18

The MTOs are highly relevant for 2 reasons. Olivia shouts 'sovereignty', MTOs (enforceable by economic sanctions) shouts otherwise. Olivia shouts 'benefits', the MTOs demonstrate whose paying for the benefits

OK - did I miss the bit about sovereignty and benefits?

Why do the MTOs prove Olivia wrong? In relation to which point?
Who is paying for the benefits.

Again a very general statement with no facts to back it up.

Carolinesbeanies · 27/10/2017 12:13

Yes absolutely bowlingshoes, it wasnt hard to find, yet utterly contradictory to your initial claim.

You are trying to sell us a low growth, low innovation, high unemployment model. The EU model. (and save me the rhetoric about 'unemployment', whilst zero hour contracts even still exist in the benevolent EU.) Having failed to materialise the economic doom predictions post referendum, youve now moved to 'predicting' doom in a deal/no deal scenario. All I have to do is wait. You on the other hand, have to demonstrate a little better, why the best remainer economists (allegedly) in the land persistantly get it wrong over and over again.

The MTOs are highly relevant for 2 reasons. Olivia shouts 'sovereignty', MTOs (enforceable by economic sanctions) shouts otherwise. Olivia shouts 'benefits', the MTOs demonstrate whose paying for the benefits.

When you come onto threads, making abusive posts about intelligence levels, either you best be sure that historically, you were correct, (which remainer economists werent) or predictably, you will be correct. To do that, you must address all impacts, not just cherry pick selective ones. Its an issue these days, and why we had a run of highly paid pollsters crash and burn. Either take into account all available data, or dont bother in the first place. The single market and the CU is one such place. Disregarding the costs of our existing membership of the SM and CU is doomed to failure, and all I have to do is sit and watch as the trajectory of low growth, wage stagnation and falling market share continues. I really dont have to explain anything.

OliviaD68 · 27/10/2017 11:03

All,

I think we’ve hit the end of the road again just like w M4dad and spinflight.

I hope @Carolinesbeanies proves us wrong but I’m sensing significant resistance either due to lack of willingness or ability to respond.

I too would like to hear both sides of the argument so it’s unfortunate it’s unlikely to be forthcoming

If there’s anyone else who can help please feel free.

Olivia

Moussemoose · 27/10/2017 11:01

Carolinesbeanies

whilst utterly disregarding the contradictory economic impacts

And this is the point in the argument where you tell us what these "contradictory economic impacts" are and why they matter.

Unless you can explain it is just blah, blah blah.

Please explain.

Moussemoose · 27/10/2017 10:58

Carolinesbeanies

The MTOs? I still don't understand the relevance.

OliviaD68 · 27/10/2017 10:55

@Carolinesbeanies

More diversions again? You like gratuitously asserting stuff don’t you?

I’ll repeat the request. Please answer the questions posed so we can all benefit. They are not obvious to me or to others.

BowlingShoes · 27/10/2017 10:54

Caroline Thank you for the list of economists, copied from the group "Economists for Free Trade". Yes, you are right there are more than one of them. However it is they, as a group led by Patrick Minford, who produced the now discredited model I referred to above. Are there any economists not part of this group, who make positive economic arguments for the WTO option? Apart from these supposed ones that are " less public " about it. I would be interested to hear their theories.

Melassa · 27/10/2017 10:54

Agree with Olivia, there is too much whatabouttery from the Brexit posters and not enough concrete answers.

Whatabouttery is a classic tactic of bots and trolls.

And as for Rufus put your question here how rude! If it was a pm it was private correspondence, or do the Brexit crowd need to control all thought in the manner of Chris HH of the university letter fame?

Carolinesbeanies · 27/10/2017 10:43

"otherwise help us better understand Brexit by being a meaningful and factual contributor."

You need help understanding? Havent we all wasted our time over the last few days here, you were so clear that you knew it all.

Just in case thats too subtle, it was you Olivia, that stormed into a thread claiming credibility and authority to pronounce on brexit, whilst throwing out a mass assault of highly offensive and insulting assertions. I dont need to explain anything.