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Original poster

Labour’s u-turn on supporting the Brexit Referendum result.

266 replies

TheaSaurass · 27/08/2017 02:51

Can anyone believe a policy this party campaigns on for votes at a general election?

Media supporters may call it a ‘shift’, but it’s a honking great u-turn, as weeks ago Corbyn on a Sunday political programme was asked to clarify Labour’s actual position (as attracted Leave and Remain votes at the last election) and he stated that Labour's position was that the UK WAS leaving the Single Market, otherwise we wouldn't be leaving.

And while the man currently setting Labour policy Keir Starmer says the time for “constructive ambiguity” is over this totally undermines the government’s position ahead of EU negotiations resuming next week.

Instead of getting on with Brexit, Labour will only support a transitional period from 2021 to 2023 (leaving open the option to stay in for good), so while May did not get the election result she wanted, who can say she wasn’t right not to trust a parliamentary Labour Party pretending they supported Brexit, to get government legislation through parliament.

Clearly they NOW feel there are more votes for leaving the question if we leave the EU, open.

“Labour makes dramatic shift on Brexit and single market”

”Labour is to announce a dramatic policy shift by backing continued membership of the EU single market beyond March 2019, when Britain leaves the EU, establishing a clear dividing line with the Tories on Brexit for the first time.”

”In a move that positions it decisively as the party of “soft Brexit”, Labour will support full participation in the single market and customs union during a lengthy “transitional period” that it believes could last between two and four years after the day of departure, it is to announce on Sunday.”

”This will mean that under a Labour government the UK would continue to abide by the EU’s free movement rules, accept the jurisdiction of the European court of justice on trade and economic issues, and pay into the EU budget for a period of years after Brexit, in the hope of lessening the shock of leaving to the UK economy. In a further move that will delight many pro-EU Labour backers, Jeremy Corbyn’s party will also leave open the option of the UK remaining a member of the customs union and single market for good, beyond the end of the transitional period.”

”The decision to stay inside the single market and abide by all EU rules during the transitional period, and possibly beyond, was agreed after a week of intense discussion at the top of the party. It was signed off by the leadership and key members of the shadow cabinet on Thursday, according to Starmer’s office.”

OP posts:
Theworldisfullofidiots · 29/08/2017 07:51

A shill us someone who is someone who acts (often paid) as an agent for a particular cause.
There are some very obvious ones on twitter
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill

OhtoblazeswithElvira · 29/08/2017 07:42

Is that sharp and funny enough for you?

No. I am after an informative, intelligent conversation, hopefully something that makes me laugh. MN has posters with wildly differing opinions - some are clearly intellectually capable, some are very knowledgeable. In the past we have had very funny, very active paid posters. There is nothing of that in this thread.

Carolinesbeanies · 29/08/2017 02:34

I love irony.... Grin

And it amuses me that due to the level of paranoia and fanaticism certain posters have, they can only explain an honest and opposing view as a 'shill'.

Is that sharp and funny enough for you? Theres another 16,999,999 out there to go at.

(Though I assume the complaint is that 2 opposing voices here is 2 too many? Heavens, that would surprise me Hmm

OhtoblazeswithElvira · 29/08/2017 01:11

When I saw this thread I knew it would be the usual, hopelessly woolly, deaf dialogue between the same 2 shills.

You could at least keep it sharp and funny .

Carolinesbeanies · 29/08/2017 00:54

"What is a shill?"

Its a regularly thrown out attempt to discredit a leavers view, and commonly used in the brexit debate. Its also utterly acceptable under MN posting guidelines. Its also closely followed by , well all racists voted leave so where does that leave you, leave voters are stupid, blah blah blah, and for some strange reason (which Ive never truly fathomed) all leave voters hark back to an 'Empire'. The only explanation I can give for that last one, is its either some cultural thing thats still being taught overseas, or if they can get a slavery argument in there too, they will.

Original poster
TheaSaurass · 29/08/2017 00:46

Apparently it is NEVER anyone with firm opinions who can articulate them on the left, or an EU Remainer. Go figure. Halo

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Carolinesbeanies · 29/08/2017 00:42

Thea, association with Blair isnt what the EU need right now. But theyre getting desperate. Desperate in Italy and Spain. Desperate in the Visegrad. Desperate over attempting to itemise a 'divorce bill'. Blair utterly understood Lisbon, he was party to writing it, and he knew when he lied to Parliament about Protocol 30. (Along with Sadiq Khan ...spookily enough). Theyre running out of options, and Blairs all theyve got.

I agree though, his consultancy fee will be astronomical. Almost as much as Branson is charging us for the health services hes providing to the NHS through his tax havened Virgin Care, that would have been provided if hed paid tax in the first place.

Just because I love throwing the Guardian at the Guardian repeaters here, coming back to your Macron point, not only are French business putting pressure on, so are the Germans,

www.theguardian.com/business/2017/aug/28/british-and-german-firms-unite-to-call-for-business-friendly-brexit-talks

GrockleBocs · 29/08/2017 00:40

NY a seemingly ordinary member of a forum who is in fact paid to espouse a certain position.

NYConcreteJungle · 29/08/2017 00:19

What is a shill? Confused

Original poster
TheaSaurass · 29/08/2017 00:11

Carolinesbeanies.

The more I read of Remainers opinions on here, I'm slowly getting your valid point, everything is roses in the EU, we are rubbish, despite what the facts show - but successive governments had to paint that rosy picture for decades - expecting the EU to one day get its 'stuff together.

I suspect that some in labour are saying that a general election isn't as imminent as the Marx Brothers comedians think, as so maybe they are playing the establishment 'longer game' - or playing Brexit interference so successfully, the final deal the Conservatives get is so rubbish they hope to win an election that way.

I doubt if any saw the report that if May had received around 400 votes across key constituencies, she'd have at least won a Westminster majority, and as Corbyn is pissing off voter after voter that may also have voted for him 'to stop may getting' such a large majority - I agree with you in that they are still believing their own hype.

Speaking of Tony Blair, well you mentioned Blairites lol, I see Blair is meeting Negotiator Barnier this week - and I doubt he is trying to sell his P.R. company services - but I wouldn't put it passed him on a percentage of the divorce bill. Hmm

OP posts:
Original poster
TheaSaurass · 28/08/2017 23:56

thecatfromjapan.

I gave the facts, you spent your time sod all instead of challenging them.

Nuff said.

OP posts:
thecatfromjapan · 28/08/2017 23:48

Thesaurass Your reply to my post - which was very short and very obviously about the facts of polling analysis - are massively off-point.

This is a Leave-bot strategy: scattergun rhetoric. It gives the illusion of response, whilst simultaneously throwing a whole load of new nonsense out there to be dealt with. The aim, I think, is to give the illusion of reason, to throw out stuff for the believers that chimes with their cognitive bias, and to throw it out in such volumes it can't be dealt with.

It's looking old, now, frankly.

I will reply to your first 2 paragraphs succinctly:

You appear to be asking "Which experts talked about blah blah blah blah." I haven't filled in the content because that is, I think, immaterial. I suspect you just filled in some random shit there.

So, the answer: the internet is a big place. There are many "experts", ie. those with professional and academic knowledge of all those subjects you (randomly) list. "Experts" on those subjects will, indeed, have been speaking somewhere about it. There will be research papers on all those subjects. There will be data that has collected about all those subjects. There will be a range of opinions - and the fact those opinions are tethered in data, and accountable, means they can be assessed for veracity.

Thank goodness.

Your rant is particularly piss-poor because, oddly enough, Mumsnet did in fact have a group of experts on to answer questions on a range of Brexit-related questions.

Their answers were un-homogenous, balanced, and researched. They bore no resemblance to the strange froth you've produced.

I think, if you were a real Mumsnetter, given your interest in all things Brexit, you'd know about that panel. Smile

Carolinesbeanies · 28/08/2017 23:40

Thea, the economic message just wont get through to avid remainers. The fundamental and inconvenient truths are ignored, in favour of warped logic, and campaign rhetoric. Ignore the eurozone. Ignore the trillions in QE. Ignore the bailouts. Ignore youth unemployment figures. Ignore, that only the UK, Sweden, and Ireland opened their labour markets to the A8, whilst Germany, France & Co imposed so called 'transitional controls'. Ignore Blairs projected 10,000 a year net migration figure, forecast for 10 years from 2004.

Jack Straw, in a master of understatement, descibed it as a 'significant policy failure'.

In 2006, John Denham wrote to Whitehall raising red flag issues. He pointed out that the day rate for a builder in his constituency (Southampton) had dropped 50% since 2004. He pointed out that the 14,000 eastern europeans that had arrived in Southampton the previous year, had put such a strain on maternity services in his local NHS, they had crippled the service. Blair, Brown and Labour continued regardless. They, and the select few, were reaping huge financial benefits and Lisbon was going to happen no matter what.

We are now 11 years on from Denhams scathing memo. 10 years on from Lisbon. Labour have just done the most stupid thing weve ever seen since ....well Mays GE. Unbelievably, having had Corbyn a whisker away from a general election victory, their fear of deselction and self survival at all costs, the party centrists are believing their own hype. Corbyn single handedly almost returned power back to Labour, (and I cant stand him) despite the Brexit turmoil, not because of it. He succeeded due to the Labour heartlands, not because of a Lib dem promise of a 2nd refrendum.

Its less than 2 months since they sacked Ruth Cadbury, Catherine West and Andy Slaughter, for voting against the Labour Party whip by supporting staying in the single market. Yet here we are, demonstrating the attention span of a goldfish, allegedly staying in the single market.

The centrist labourites, the wealthy Blairites, believe their own hype and it will, yet again, be their root of their dramatic downfall.

Carolinesbeanies · 28/08/2017 23:28

"No wonder Leavers don't like 'experts'."

LOL Cat. I think youll find, Clinton was a dead cert, Remain was a sure bet, and Corbyn was utterly unelectable. Crack on.

Original poster
TheaSaurass · 28/08/2017 23:25

abilockhart

"Just when the Tory government were doing their level best to make the UK into another North Korea!"

Is that the STATE run N.Korea?

You clearly didn't follow New Labour's record over 13-years where the government payroll when up by 18% and the private sector that funds it went up 7%.

And Corbyn's Old Labour 2017 manifesto, finish New Labour's job and tax companies/jobs out of existence, 'create' 1 million 'well paid' new government jobs, nationalise our key industries, invest £250 bil of taxpayers money into what, new statues of him and a stronger party-within a party?

And you say the Conservative economy is like N Korea's? Grin

OP posts:
Original poster
TheaSaurass · 28/08/2017 23:14

thecatfromjapan

Re your

"YouGov and Lord Ashcroft polls suggest that the majority of Labour voters voted Remain."

"No wonder Leavers don't like 'experts'."

How many experts pre Referendum mentioned the Eurozones unemployment rate twice ours, that their employment 'rights' mean those in secure jobs are far more important than the growing unemployment, that in the Eurozone Permanent Contracts have been declining since 2000, and of the Eurozone young workers lucky enough to have jobs, around 52% are Temp Contracts - as companies are afraid of EU employment laws?

How many 'experts' saying the EU is our mono lingual childrens employment future, that they'd be a honking great UK recession, and 3 million unemployed AFTER a Leave vote - told us with balance how 'great' conditions were in the Eurozone - which was why through Freedom of Movement Brussels refused Cameron some relief, was a problem here?

As to Labour voters, when under Corbyn and their Momentum party-within-a-party cared about them, with promise after promise including coming out of the Single Market lies for power?

Party Members, Unite trade union and over 200 MP's that are Remain I'd suggest are calling the shots on this one, as Corbyn has opposed almost everything about the EU since the 1980's, right through the 2000s - and having stated up to i month ago on the Andrew Marr show we are unequivocally coming OUT of the Single Market, as staying in means staying in the EU - maybe you can sit there and tell me that Corbyn represents the people (and his own believes), but the facts dispute that.

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thecatfromjapan · 28/08/2017 22:41

No wonder Leavers don't like 'experts'.

Experts tend to be trained, accountable, professional - verify sources and use actual, real facts.

abilockhart · 28/08/2017 22:41

Oh damn!

Just when the Tory government were doing their level best to make the UK into another North Korea!

thecatfromjapan · 28/08/2017 22:40

YouGov and Lord Ashcroft polls suggest that the majority of Labour voters voted Remain.

Mistigri · 28/08/2017 22:38

About two thirds of 2015 Labour voters voted remain - do you have a source that suggests otherwise?

It's not rocket science - Labour vote heavily concentrated in cities; big cities voted remain. Some of the London constituencies with large Labour majorities had a remain vote of over 75%.

Labour's problem is that it has a lot of marginal constituencies which voted leave, but leavers are still a minority of Labour voters.

And no, I don't think the Guardian's reporting on Europe is very good. As I said above, get your French news from the FT, which has some good European correspondants, or (better) read it in the original.

thecatfromjapan · 28/08/2017 22:36

The dip in Macron's approval ratings almost certainly has nothing to do with the EU. The point Misti was disagreeing with was to do with the EU. Your newspaper link has nothing about the EU in it.

Carolinesbeanies · 28/08/2017 22:13

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/27/french-president-macrons-popularity-slumps-again

Yep, the Guardians pretty shit too Misti.

You said this earlier,

"I would observe that Labour's shift is rather unsurprising, given that at least two thirds of Labour voters are remainers, as are most of its MPs"

Did you simply mistranslate this, or were you intentionally spouting misinformation? The poll youre refering to was of Labour Party members, not voters. I fear, yet again, youre about to be seriously dissappointed

Mistigri · 28/08/2017 21:31

Thea your source is one British newspaper with a poor record on reporting French political news (actually it's unfair to single out the Torygraph: the only UK paper which reports accurately on French news is the FT). If you want to comment on French news, you need to learn some French.

Note: I'm an actual French speaker working for a European business ...

Original poster
TheaSaurass · 28/08/2017 16:12

Mistigri

"Apparently the French are the first of many members, getting fed up with the EU Negotiators/Brussels position"

"Appears to be fake news made up by the Telegraph - French media people saying that the Elysée has denied this. No trade talks until "sufficient progress" on the other issues."

I know Europhiles just cannot fathom that EU businesses want as much 'certainty' of future conditions as UK businesses over the next 3-5 years - but obviously that is how all businesses function, especially with shareholders who want ANSWERS.

Clearly the EU Negotiating position is just 'road to final deal' stupid, as I have alluded to in several posts on this thread - as the UK cannot fully assess Irish borders or UK-EU future trade and relationships WITHOUT knowing what trade will look like at the end.

So it is highly conceivable that EU company pressure, or just member states seeing the EU Negotiators are piss-balling about trying to get in opening demands what we cannot commercially give them.

So France looking to make domestic labour reforms, with unemployment finally under 10%, with a new President's 'Approval Rating' falling LOWER than President Hollandes first 3-months before him - WANTING certainty as a State and for the companies within is hardly likely to be 'made up'.

And even IF it was, when the largest Westminster Opposition Party says it is not only siding with EU Negotiators, but open to STAYING in the EU beyond a 2023 'transition period', the Elysee would say that, wouldn't they?

Labour has just joined their side at a key time in the Brexit battle when the EU's negotiating position was an unforced lemon, and what did Napoleon say, something like 'give me lucky generals over good generals' .

From Venezuela to France, there will be governments shouting 'viva Le or El Presedente Corbyn', or something like that lol

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Alltheprettyseahorses · 28/08/2017 16:11

I don't trust it myself. It's come from Starmer, not the leader's office, so the narrative can change depending on audience. Remainer? Here's a half-hint to stay in the EU. Brexiteer? Labour is demonstrably pro-leave. More cynical attempts at manipulation from what was once a decent political party. Not that the Tories are any better. What happened to politics? There must be better than this shower we have now.