Labour’s u-turn on supporting the Brexit Referendum result.

"We" voted for more money for the NHS. Within 24 hours we were told we could forget that.

The UK's desire to leave the EU is exactly the cause of Irish border problems. Staying in the EEA/EFTA would get round that. Ireland uniting would also get round that. Or the preferred option of the extreme Leavers - getting Ireland to leave the EU would make the problem go away too.

And I agree with Yoko wrt the Irish border.

By the way WTO terms may be fine with you but I think it may play out very badly with the majority of the UK population.

Wholly I'm banging on about your authoritative use of "We" because you really have no legitimacy for it, you know.

Analysis of Leave voters after the referendum suggests that some 50% voted Leave, assuming it meant staying in the Single Market.

And (some) people involved in Leave campaigns also insist leaving the single market wasn't in the campaign.

There really is no "we".

Wholly Father Your post is interesting. It sounds so authoritative. You say "We" with such certainty - as though you speak for a "We" that is cohesive and authoritative. "We" are going to do this, that, the other; "we" voted for "Brexit".

Actually

you have no authority whatsoever. There is no way at all I am going to believe you are a part of the government cabinet that has actual authority over what is going to happen with regard to Brexit. So you can promise nothing.

I'm picking up on this because the vacuous promises, delivered with no authority, were such a feature of the Leave campaign. Just in case there is one, single credulous person left reading, I think it is worth pointing out that statements about "we are going to do this, that, the other", when delivered by a Leave-espouser, in an authoritative tone, mean nothing.

Similarly "We voted for Brexit" is similarly incohesive. Analysis of voting has revealed (and continues to demonstrate) that the Leave vote was, and the Leave cohort remains, incredibly divided on the issue of what the desired outcome of their vote was, ie. what they were voting for.

wholly the Irish border problem has become an EU issue due to Brexit, it is entirely the fault and responsibility of those pushing to leave the EU that this is now an issue.

wholly you're clearly not a shill. There is a certain house style to the shills on here, as well as a propensity for starting goady Brexit/anti-opposition threads.

Interesting that brexiters appear to be disowning Banks. I wonder why that is?

It's certainly the role of the Opposition to oppose... but not to reverse a clear manifesto commitment out of pure opportunism. And I'm so glad somebody actually bothered to look and found the Conservative manifesto on their website as expected - too many of you will believe the most shameless propaganda so long as it is critical of the Tories.

We cannot implement the Brexit a majority of voters asked for and stay in the single market or customs union. 'Transition' is code for 'never leaving' and is not just unnecessary but unacceptable. We need to keep the hard end date of March 2019 to focus the EU's hive mind on the important matter at hand, sorting out our post-Brexit trading relationships with EU members. I doubt they will manage it, not when you remember the Walloons on their own almost derailed the (still not implemented) Canada-EU deal.

The EU is still fixated on their demand for making us pay a huge and entirely unlawful exit bribe, and their determination to interfere in the Irish border problem, which is none of their business, so it seems trade doesn't really interest them. Oh well, WTO it is. Fine with me.

And my guess is the EU shills on here outnumber all the other shills by about 5 to 1. And feel free to accuse, but you can take my word for it I'm a private citizen writing in a private capacity and not paid by anyone.

Aaron Banks wrote 'The Bad Boys of Brexit'!!! This issue has nothing to do with Remainers, please don't gaslight us! It's got everything to do with how Leave.EU chose to represent the issues to people who found it difficult to understand them. He's almost as much to blame as Farage.

I disagree Yoko. The sycophantic obsession with Aaron Banks and neo fascists is all with remainers.

'Your beloved Arron Banks'

Nothing to do with us!! We're on opposite sides of the debate. He's yours!

No matter how hard you try to put the cart before the horse (and your obsession with Aaron Banks) youre still missing the crux of the issue. If the cost to stay in the single market is 0, even your beloved Aaron Banks will support it. If the cost is 40% tariff on all goods, the entire nation will them them to sling their hook. Thats all there is to it.

Its irrelevant how Labour want to play party politics. Its irrelevant that they offer a single market policy to the voters. Its typical however, that they offer it without any cost implications, for the simple reason that at the moment, they can. Slap a 40% tariff on there and this cunning Labour plot suddenly turns into ridiculous economic suicide ....again.

So what do you think Labours intention is? Obtain a mandate to remain in the single market at any cost? Thats the reason so many of us support no deal. Not some obsessive aversion, or anti everything, but an utter awareness that until the EU name their price, theres no way Id walk in a room saying, yes weve got to have it, now please shaft me over a barrel.

The message from the elctorate is starting to get through. Divorce bill yes. Over 10bn and you best have a damn good reason for charging me.

So you did know that your chart had nothing whatsoever to do with what woman posted and you were indeed introducing the new Arron Banks pressure pint.

OK, for what it's worth, I think AB is trying to get 'the people' all riled up about the cost of 'the bill' in order to get the government worried about getting 'the bill' down, ie. not paying to enter the Single Market.

As we all know, there is a distinct lack of clarity as to whether the UK is going to ask to remain a member of the Single Market. AB and his friends seem to want a very Hard Brexit, and they want it soon. Hence the desire to apply pressure, now.

Personally, I think it's way too soon to get 'the people' riled about costs.

There's a reason we 'don't know what we're paying for'. And it's not wholly down to the EU.

As we all know, DD is stalling on proposing anything.

I agree that Brexit is viewed as a political poisoned challice Cat, hence my respect to a lesser degree for TM on this, when all the big boys are running round pathetically in their not so big boy pants, but thats in a vastly majority remain parliament. Clearly I disagree with your perceived long term outcome of Brexit, and Labour would do better to listen to the likes of Dennis Skinner, rather than repeat the same mistakes they did in 2014 by voting him off the national executive. (Labour went on to lose 26 seats in the 2015 GE) If you believe Dennis Skinner voted leave to ensure more in his homelands were unemployed and worse off, you are hugely mistaken.

Do you really think its an outrageous request to ask what the 'bill' is for Cat?

In sales speak, youre asking the buyer to be the seller too. We have to 'buy' our exit. That has been made clear to us. Do you not even think its a slightly odd approach to then ask the buyer to decide the price?
IMO, the reality is indeed, that the EU themselves havent a clue. Legal opinion is split as to whether theres even a bill to be paid, and if so, on what. Add to that the 'punitive' element that they need to impose (that theyve been highly public about) to deter other members from leaving, how exactly would you propose we name the 'punitive' price for cancelling our club membership? No one but no one walks into a room as buyer and seller.

If the EU wish to put a price on single market access, they have to name it. If they want to charge a club membership cancellation fee, they have to name it.

Indeed, all these perceived experts in Brussels, the big boy negotiation teams, and not one of them can produce a figure?

As it stands, in the absence of any 'bill', Id be expecting to pay 0. Expecting anyone to debate on a forum what the bill should be, when the party demanding the payment cant produce one, is a tad fruitless.

In short, we're standing here waiting, with cash in our hands, and no one in Europe can tell us what they want us to pay?

"Not that it really matters carolinesbeanies, and flattered as I am by that reference, it's not my real fake name.

My mistake, CarolinesBeanies thought you were calling me 'Yoko', but
I assume you're much to young to understand why I would have thought that..

woman's poll is older than that. I think it was drawn from Ashcroft research and was about what people wanted from Brexit (ie. not to be worse off).

It's a fascinating poll because it suggests that long-term dissatisfaction with Brexit is going to be a real problem - mainly for the Conservatives and all those associated with Brexit.

Because Brexit is going to make people worse off, and people are going to lose their jobs.

So there is a real fear haunting those who are implementing this about the long-term political fall out from Brexit.

And, of course, there is a huge political incentive for finding other people to blame for the inevitable results of Brexit.

Your poll (as I'm sure you know) is about how much people think we should pay the EU when we leave.

That's a short-term cost.

It is (this financial settlement of what the UK owes + eventually cost of staying in the SM, if we go that route), oddly enough, also one of the two issues that Arron Banks' group has decided to focus on in order to put pressure on the government for a 'Hard Brexit'.

It's quite a good issue to focus on, since the idea of a 'divorce settlement' is quite a simple one, that people can get their heads around. It is, however, a gross simplification of what this money is. And the reality, of course, is that the UK doesn't really have many cards to play. DD's stalling tactics (the cunning plan of turning up to talks with nothing planned with regard to that financial decision) seems to be going really, really badly.

The poll you link to is nothing to do with the one that woman linked to. I strongly suspect you know that.

"caroline it could be argued that May and the Tories have turned Brexit party political, what with being the party of Hard Brexit.

Perhaps Labour's U-turn is in response to this? They need a position and they've manoeuvred into one."

Yoko, someone has to deliver Brexit. Thats the first issue and one that saw DC run for the hills. The second issue is delivering what the nation have instructed the government to do. What I think is being misunderstood, is that on this issue, the nation will demand the government behave as they are elected to behave, and thats to act at the wishes of the people. The line has been drawn, and the british people will continue with their rejection of the EU, until a government turns up who will indeed act as they are paid to.

In the meantime, all the internal fannying around, from both main parties, serves no one, but this is what happens when parliament isnt reflective of the voting population. If MPs were 50/50 split, as the nation is, then we wouldnt be having these discussions. As it is, we still have an overwhelming representation of remain MPs, attempting to steer the nation by any means or dirty tactics. Its just not going to wash, whichever party you pin your colours to.

Is this the poll youre refering to woman12345, 70% of voters say a brexit bill of 30bn or more is utterly unacceptable and 60% say a bill of over 10bn is outrageous?

The Guardian......today.

"Not that it really matters carolinesbeanies, and flattered as I am by that reference, it's not my real fake name."

?????

Havent a clue what this refers to....... can you link to whatever youre going on about woman12345?

(or am I being dense here, and someone is pretending to be someone else, though clearly theyre not

caroline it could be argued that May and the Tories have turned Brexit party political, what with being the party of Hard Brexit.

Perhaps Labour's U-turn is in response to this? They need a position and they've manoeuvred into one.

thecatfromjapan thank you

PS DS1 loves My Cat Likes To Hide In Boxes!!

This could have the potential to further weaken the current government, which can only be a good thing. Hopefully there will either be another election sooner than planned or TM will finally go and (wishful thinking) maybe a more moderate MP might take her place. I really think the government has been disastrous on so many key issues, I don't think UK can handle much more.

Not that it really matters carolinesbeanies, and flattered as I am by that reference, it's not my real fake name.

Leave was funded by the extreme right and some very dodgy neo fascists. Brexit is not a labour policy, and no, Labour won't be doing any coalitions with any leave parties.

Great that the mood and polls are changing, and that they are moving towards rejecting this insane little coup.

Yoko, I think one of the huge issues re Brexit, is that the Brexit vote wasnt a party political one. Leavers and Remainers, voted from all areas, all walks of life. Any party, is possibly therefore doomed to failure by making the leave/remain stance a party political one. Is SM membership viewed as 'remain in all but name'? IMO, yes it is.

Coalition government anybody?