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Original poster

Labour’s u-turn on supporting the Brexit Referendum result.

266 replies

TheaSaurass · 27/08/2017 02:51

Can anyone believe a policy this party campaigns on for votes at a general election?

Media supporters may call it a ‘shift’, but it’s a honking great u-turn, as weeks ago Corbyn on a Sunday political programme was asked to clarify Labour’s actual position (as attracted Leave and Remain votes at the last election) and he stated that Labour's position was that the UK WAS leaving the Single Market, otherwise we wouldn't be leaving.

And while the man currently setting Labour policy Keir Starmer says the time for “constructive ambiguity” is over this totally undermines the government’s position ahead of EU negotiations resuming next week.

Instead of getting on with Brexit, Labour will only support a transitional period from 2021 to 2023 (leaving open the option to stay in for good), so while May did not get the election result she wanted, who can say she wasn’t right not to trust a parliamentary Labour Party pretending they supported Brexit, to get government legislation through parliament.

Clearly they NOW feel there are more votes for leaving the question if we leave the EU, open.

“Labour makes dramatic shift on Brexit and single market”

”Labour is to announce a dramatic policy shift by backing continued membership of the EU single market beyond March 2019, when Britain leaves the EU, establishing a clear dividing line with the Tories on Brexit for the first time.”

”In a move that positions it decisively as the party of “soft Brexit”, Labour will support full participation in the single market and customs union during a lengthy “transitional period” that it believes could last between two and four years after the day of departure, it is to announce on Sunday.”

”This will mean that under a Labour government the UK would continue to abide by the EU’s free movement rules, accept the jurisdiction of the European court of justice on trade and economic issues, and pay into the EU budget for a period of years after Brexit, in the hope of lessening the shock of leaving to the UK economy. In a further move that will delight many pro-EU Labour backers, Jeremy Corbyn’s party will also leave open the option of the UK remaining a member of the customs union and single market for good, beyond the end of the transitional period.”

”The decision to stay inside the single market and abide by all EU rules during the transitional period, and possibly beyond, was agreed after a week of intense discussion at the top of the party. It was signed off by the leadership and key members of the shadow cabinet on Thursday, according to Starmer’s office.”

OP posts:
Original poster
TheaSaurass · 27/08/2017 17:06

“Hard Brexit would cost EU £8bn more than Britain every year”

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 27/08/2017 17:05

If Corbyn comes to power on say a platform of renationalisation, or anything else that would significantly change the country, I'd consider the Tory Opposition to be a bunch of wimps if they didn't oppose that tooth & nail.
Especially opposing a minority govt

Original poster
TheaSaurass · 27/08/2017 17:05

KarmaNoMore
Re your ”Thankful that someone has started questioning what the Tories are doing. Teresa May is starting to use the same tactics as Trump and we are heading to an unequivocal economical disaster on the sake of a badly planned referendum and political gain.”

On Trade the Brexit pressure based on cash values was on the EU, hence they put ‘Trade’ at the back of their Negotiating Schedule, and their extortionate Euro 100 bil divorce bill at the front.

Trade between the UK and EU is business to business, and there is no way EU businesses would have stood back while the bureaucrats in Brussels trying to make a political point, screwed their business with the UK – especially as the Eurozone’s growth, employment has been down in the dumpster for years - and only now coming back to growth after the European Central Bank started Euro 2 trillion of QE from 2015 and other ‘emergency’ measures to get their banks to lend.

To show you the extent of trade to and from the EU from the UK is to their advantage, see below;

“Hard Brexit would cost EU [[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hard-brexit-cost-eu-uk-every-year-single-market-article-50-theresa-may-a7378006.html£8bn more than Britain every year”

“EU companies would have to pay £13 billion year in tariffs compared to £5 billion for British firms, says thinktank”

Recently we found at that Labour do not pay too much attention to figures, you know, £100 bil here, £100 bil there, it can all be covered by new taxes and borrowing.

But looking at the above and Labour’s new insistence that the UK does whatever it ££££ needs to do to stay IN the Single Market, means that Labour have just RUINED the UK’s negotiating position in obtaining somewhere near the Tariff Free trade, we CURRENTLY have with the EU.

After the result of 13-years in power (based on what they inherited and what they left), how much more proof do we need that economically, we should not trust them to run our bath waters?

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BigChocFrenzy · 27/08/2017 17:03

The Opposition represents millions of voters, usually not many % less than the govt.

BigChocFrenzy · 27/08/2017 17:02

The function of the Official Opposition is to oppose - that principle goes back at least to Disraeli

Even if a govt wins a huge majority - for e.g. massive benefit cuts, or massive renationalisation - that doesn't mean the Opposition can't go all out to oppose govt policies from day 1.
The Opposition represents millions of voters, usually not many % more than the govt.

It has always been so.
The Opposition opposes, then eventually becomes a govt and tries to bring in its own policies, while the other lot oppose.
No reason why Brexit has to be a Holy Cow policy, untouchable by lesser mortals not in govt.

The referendum result - a narrow plurality - was for Brexit:
Leaving the EU is Brexit, whether on WTO terms - if the govt is that clueless - or an EEA / EFTA Brexit,
which maintains trade with the EU and the rest of the world pretty much as now

The govt need to put aside their ideology,
ignore the superwealthy oligarchs like Murdoch who want the UK to become a low wage tax haven for the uberwealthy,
ignore the vulture capitalists who want to drive down working conditions to those of China & india.

Original poster
TheaSaurass · 27/08/2017 16:42

Peregrina

"A pity then that May didn't stick to her commitment not to hold an early election and thus a) lose her majority, and b) embolden Corbyn."

Yup and she has accepted responsibility for that and will be gone before the next general election.

“Embolden”, this leader of men and his trusty lieutenants stated that they WON the general election.

They first tried to organise mass matches to overthrow the May government (Corbyn/McDonnell won’t support in Venezuela apparently), dissed the DUP coalition when Corbyn was ready to jump into a far more expensive SNP (coalition) bed – and so trying to bring the government down by changing their stance on leaving the EU, so no UK friendly Brexit will get through parliament – is possibly just a new ‘cunning plan’ in the far lefts lust for power.

Maybe that nice man Len at the Unite trade union already lining up Corbyn’s replacement (Emily Thornyberry) the other day, was the final wist of Corbyn’s arm. Grin

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allegretto · 27/08/2017 16:36

I think "calculated deception" is a bit unfair when the whole referendum was a huge political miscalculation that backfired. However, I didn't even have a vote thanks to a manifesto promise that the Tories didn't keep so really I don't think you can claim the moral highground.

Peregrina · 27/08/2017 16:35

It's not fair is it TheaSaurass - May's rubbish campaign didn't win her the seats she needed. I wonder who is to blame for that? Perhaps she could have campaigned a bit harder in Tory seats, instead of campaigning in places like Denis Skinner's seat.

KarmaNoMore · 27/08/2017 16:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
TheaSaurass · 27/08/2017 16:26

Allegretto

Re your

”You seem peeved that Labour aren't supporting the Tory government. Many of us are happy that they have decided not to get behind the government's desire to drive us off the edge of a cliff!”

Firstly Labour’s policies can only be formulated by members and focus groups rather than leadership, as Labour ensured from what Mr Starmer calls “constructive ambiguity”, that its mixed messages got Leave and Remainer votes – clearly knowing the PRO REMAIN parties like the Lib Dem and SNP parties would not do as well as they expected in the general election.

So that misinformation to voters alone, seriously gets up my nose when the result of the Referendum was to Leave, as it clearly was a pre general election calculated deception.

Or Mr Corbyn as a leader doesn't know whether to have a shit or a hair cut.

There is no ‘edge of a cliff’ other than in pro Remain MPs etc who have pretended all along that there was a ‘Soft Brexit’ option, when in the EU’s eyes there was never one (see below), and so all along their agenda was to try and de-rail Brexit.

'Hard Brexit' or 'no Brexit' for Britain – Tusk”

And just when the government was going on the offensive against very unfair EU demands, Labour have sided with the EU and their negotiators.

When the EU asks for a Euro 100 billion divorce bill, that could be far better spent here, while this government will challenge it, as Labour is now begging to stay in a Single Market’ where BY FAR the EU sells far more stuff here than we do to them, when Labour is asked to bend over and accept it, their answer would be "HOW FAR, sir"?

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LineysRun · 27/08/2017 16:23

I'm very pleased that Labour have woken up and smelled the Brexit shit.

MaisyPops · 27/08/2017 16:15

We have a Brexit vote.

The brexit campaign didnt outline what brexit would look like. Just lots of 'we'll sort it later' and people who voted brexit did so for lota of different reasons. A vote for brexit was a vote for an unknown entity or outcome.

As a remain voter, I've accepted the outcome (even if I strongly disagree with it). But the brexit vote does not give the government free reugn to make whatever deals they like and design a hard brexit.

The option of a softer brexit that keeps some ties and is less isolationist/cosying up to Trump makes me feel a bit better about the situation.

Frankiestein401 · 27/08/2017 16:14

perhaps we could be told what this government is proposing to do about anything?

Peregrina · 27/08/2017 16:12

AND the government has a huge job re a Brexit agreement to then get through parliament (that just got a whole lot tougher due to Labours u-turn)

A pity then that May didn't stick to her commitment not to hold an early election and thus a) lose her majority, and b) embolden Corbyn.

Peregrina · 27/08/2017 16:09

Conservative Manifesto

I was wrong, you don't even need to download it, although any one keen enough could do so.

thecatfromjapan · 27/08/2017 16:00

Indeed. We wouldn't want to vote Labour and get landed with a completely different leader, with a track-record of lying about immigration figures in their previous role, and hell-bent on pursuing a policy that has questionable support, would we?

Original poster
TheaSaurass · 27/08/2017 15:57

Perigrina

"And indeed the 2015 and 2010 manifestos can still be downloaded"

Thank you for that information, but while it seems very important to some why the 2017 Conservative manifesto is not there, other than this current loose coalition is far weaker than in 2010 and the DUP disagreed with some of the policies - AND the government has a huge job re a Brexit agreement to then get through parliament (that just got a whole lot tougher due to Labours u-turn) - I have no other explanation to offer.

Sorry. Flowers

But frankly due to recent records in government, from 1997 I'd worry far more about what Labour leaves OUT of their manifestos (to be implemented after), not just what they put in. Angry

OP posts:
allegretto · 27/08/2017 15:50

You seem peeved that Labour aren't supporting the Tory government. Confused Many of us are happy that they have decided not to get behind the government's desire to drive us off the edge of a cliff!

thecatfromjapan · 27/08/2017 15:48

... or a Party held hostage to interests other than being answerable to the electorate such as a frothing libertarian wing or Dacre/Murdoch.

thecatfromjapan · 27/08/2017 15:47

I think the days when policy shifts can be dismissed as U-turns, rather than welcomed as responses to a changing political situation, are numbered.

Frankly, I'm glad policy shifts. Anything else smacks to me of blind ideology or fundamentalism.

crazycatguy · 27/08/2017 15:47

I'm glad they have done this also (and I've never voted Labour). It's about time someone beat the slow transitional Brexit drum. The Tories have beat the return to Empire one and the Lib Dems just have a triangle right now.

Proferring NOT leaving is not a subversion of the will of the people, it's democratic. If we want to leave we'll just vote for it again.

Original poster
TheaSaurass · 27/08/2017 15:45

"Is it me but aren't you a Tory shill? Or a wannabe Tory shill?"

No, but if I can articulate MY reasons for MY opinions, and all some others so ideologically lame can do, is ‘name call’ – I’d suggest someone is throwing stones in a very large glass house.

If a government/party/policy doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny, or won’t take any factual criticism without 'a party within a party' getting their ‘heavies’ out, personally I’d look at my own beliefs, not attack others for, in this case, talking about Labour's big announcement that THEY want to stand behind (now).

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Peregrina · 27/08/2017 15:43

And indeed the 2015 and 2010 manifestos can still be downloaded.
It's even possible to find copies of Attlee's 1945 manifesto on the web.

Peregrina · 27/08/2017 15:38

Is your argument (and the chances of implementing the everyday is Christmas to everyone of the Labour manifesto) so weak you have to worry which manifestos stays on the Conservative website?

I am not making any argument - merely stating that normally Manifestos are kept up on websites, so it can be seen what the parties hope to achieve. For a party which wasn't in Government, but then wins, they have the easy get out clause for not implementing manifesto promises; that now they have access to the books, x,y, z is not possible. Not so easy for a party which retains power, except that circumstances change.

As it happens, a quick google brings up both Labour and Conservative manifestos, although the Labour one is more accessible, the Conservative one is a PDF which has to be downloaded.

Original poster
TheaSaurass · 27/08/2017 15:31

"OP is never going to listen due to very entrenched views, but the news earlier this week that Sterling is the weakest it's ever been,..."

Well Sterling the 'weakest its ever been' is absolute rollocks, please qualify, as why SHOULD I listen to that sort of misinformation if that is the best you have?

When do you think it would be under an anti business far left Labour government, massively increasing UK debt, increasing taxes to sustain the unsustainable - and neither in or out of the EU, still contributing £billions to the EU and allowing Free movement of labour compressing UK pay rates - with the UK population rising up after voting Leave the EU?

OP posts: