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Original poster

Catalexit

135 replies

Spinflight · 30/07/2017 21:54

Quite a bun fight brewing in Spain..

The Catalonian government has passed laws and whatnot to hold a referendum on becoming independent on the 1st of October.

Which is rather awkward, as the Spanish government, the EU and various other bodies say that to do so, even to hold a vote, would be illegal.

Course there's lots of opinion polls, which naturally are all over the place.

The only thing they conclusively show is that the Catalans want a binding vote.

Whilst this is quite rightly an internal matter, were they to vote out ( which incidentally would put them out of the EU) should we support their wishes?

Surely the right to self determination trumps all other concerns, though it has to be said that we would really, really annoy Spain and the EU in doing so.

Interesting times, as ever. What are your thoughts?

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Mistigri · 22/09/2017 07:05

Many southern French also consider themselves Catalonians.

Utter bollocks. There is a tiny independence movement confined to the area around Perpignan, where an independence party occasionally gets a few per cent of the the vote and where the local press quietly takes the mickey out of them.

Carolinesbeanies · 22/09/2017 02:23

Im still watching this Spin. As the Spanish government stick to their 'unconstitutional' position, and up the ante, I gather that under the 1945 UN charter on self determination, its the Spanish government who should change their constitution to allow Catelonia to ask the question. Which way this is going to go, I just dont know, but passions are running high.

Youre right about the Occitanians blurred border, but the Flemish Alliance in Belgium has grown significantly, and Venice are grumbling about independance too. Theres a common theme. IMO, the EU has shackled an almost entire continent of peoples, and theyre well and truly kicking back. Its only going to get worse.

Original poster
Spinflight · 18/09/2017 13:48

I agree Caroline, or more correctly I did.

Yes the only thing the opinion polls show clearly is as you said, though the repressive measures taken will, I think, sway even those who merely wanted to be asked so they could remain a part of Spain.

For instance the authorities may have thought that pinching 100,000 posters supporting independence was a win on their part. 100,000 posters though is cheap, the publicity generated from those missing posters rather an expensive commodity.

The Catalan border doesn't, historically, stop at the Spanish border. Many southern French also consider themselves Catalonians.

Whilst I think a free and fair referendum would likely have been narrowly defeated, ham fisted actions and Franconian tactics have I think swayed it to the inevitable.

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Carolinesbeanies · 18/09/2017 00:46

Spin, I think whats being under reported, is the strength of feeling over the right to be asked, not neccesarily the outcome. This appears to be an out and out demand for democracy rather than automatic support for independance. I gather over 80% support a referendum, yet somewhere around 40% support independance.

Its becoming a common theme across europe. Democracy? No such thing in the EU, and if Spain keep going in heavy handed over this, I think itll spread far beyond the Catalan borders.

www.thelocal.es/20170917/catalonias-mayors-caught-in-referendum-crossfire

Original poster
Spinflight · 17/09/2017 01:37

Finally some reporting of this in the MSM.

Police raiding offices and confiscating posters, ballot boxes etc. 700 Mayors threatened with jail. It's getting quite nasty.

Given that, reportedly, over a million bods turned out on the streets to support independence it may not be a foregone conclusion but looks very likely.

Most amusingly Spain threatened to stop all funding for Catalonia if they went ahead. As Catalan is the richest region in Spain, and therefore somewhat subsidises the rest, it's a bit like the EU demanding money from us if we stop paying them money. :)

Of course ditching the Euro would have some very welcome results. Due to the inherent structural problems a lot of the imbalances are hidden in unresolved target2 payments and the like. Asking for these back would mean admitting they exist, which isn't going to be palatable.

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cdtaylornats · 07/08/2017 13:29

There are nearly 70 active separatist movements in the EU

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_movements_in_Europe

Original poster
Spinflight · 07/08/2017 10:57

Well there is the flanders successionists. Largest party in the flanders parliament / council / Garden shed. Don't get too excited though, there's any 97 different parties so bring the largest takes only a handful of seats.

More interesting potentially is Bavaria. A German election result which is displeasing to bavarian tastes, plus the catalans showing the way a few days later might persuade more than the third of them that currently want independence.

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TheaSaurass · 31/07/2017 23:56

Would this reopen the partition of Belgium debate, where apparently the status of Brussels on a split would be both unclear and controversial?

Just on the Flemish side north of the horizontal line with Wallonia, personally I think that as the Brussels elite don’t mind moving to Strasbourg every month, the least they could do is permanently shift Brussels a tad south, and so its ‘dead in the middle’ of both.

What? Grin

TheaSaurass · 31/07/2017 23:54

Spinflight

As to ”Surely the right to self determination trumps all other concerns,”

To my mind what trumps everything would be Catalonia’s ability to have a broad based economy that could support itself now and in the future, as it seems that is a question idealistic politicians focused on self determination usually forget to mention pre vote – but it would be the people within being offered the promise of a new, better life, that would suffer afterwards.

Does anyone know if Catalonia has its sums, currency, and banking system in order, should they gain independence – or is this all just political posturing ‘bull’?

cdtaylornats · 31/07/2017 20:56

It is amusing watching the SNP trying to stay onside with the EU and the Catalans who they have always supported before.

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