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Original poster

Catalexit

135 replies

Spinflight · 30/07/2017 21:54

Quite a bun fight brewing in Spain..

The Catalonian government has passed laws and whatnot to hold a referendum on becoming independent on the 1st of October.

Which is rather awkward, as the Spanish government, the EU and various other bodies say that to do so, even to hold a vote, would be illegal.

Course there's lots of opinion polls, which naturally are all over the place.

The only thing they conclusively show is that the Catalans want a binding vote.

Whilst this is quite rightly an internal matter, were they to vote out ( which incidentally would put them out of the EU) should we support their wishes?

Surely the right to self determination trumps all other concerns, though it has to be said that we would really, really annoy Spain and the EU in doing so.

Interesting times, as ever. What are your thoughts?

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Carolinesbeanies · 03/10/2017 01:46

Theres a very strong possibility they will unilaterally declare Independance tomorrow Spin, (or wednesday when the Catalonian parliament sits). There appears to be strong feeling that Puidgemont (spelling!!) is in as much of a corner as Rajoy.

Im still utterly utterly outraged at both Rajoy for setting the riot police on civilians, and our media still watering the whole event down. Amongst those attacked were women, young girls, the elderly, firefighters, and so on. But my enduring picture from the weekend? Is this one. Spain 2017. This should be hung outside the Palacio de las Cortes in Madrid.

Original poster
Spinflight · 02/10/2017 07:08

"The Catalonian referendum is a matter for the Spanish govt & people, adding: “Spain is a close ally and a good friend, whose strength and unity matters to the UK."

This is going to bite us!

The right of self determination is both enshrined in numerous treaties and widely and properly seen as the bedrock of democracy. The EU treaties for instance allow the suspension or expulsion of states who use violence against their own people.

And Boris supports this, nothing to do with us. An internal matter, a few local difficulties.

I've been disappointed with May's silence, expected at least a "we support the right of people's to self determination" or similar. Nowt, nothing, nada.

Next time we lecture any country on freedom and democracy this will be thrown in our faces. And bloody right too.

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SouthLondonDaddy · 01/10/2017 20:32

The difference between the Basque country and Catalonia has always amazed me.

Only the former has terrorists (there is no Catalan equivalent of ETA), but the Basque are in many way less nationalist than the Catalans: not every Basque speaks Euskara but every Catalan speak Catalan; it is much easier to work in the Basque country speaking Spanish only than it is in Catalonia.

A few years ago I was in a restaurant in a small town between Barcelona and the French border; I tried to say something to the waiter in Spanish (I am fluent, I read books and watch movies in Spanish) and he angrily replied back to me in Catalan. WTF? He could tell from the accent I was not Spanish; I was just a tourist, I wasn't trying to make a political statement or anything. In this respect, the Catalans are way more aggressive than the Scots or (AFAIk) the Flemish.

Carolinesbeanies · 01/10/2017 09:31

Sky reporter just been shot at live on tv by riot police with plastic ballguns. Gone to ads.

Carolinesbeanies · 01/10/2017 09:27

Meanwhile on the other side..... the BBC reporting 'scuffles' and occasional "jostling" Confused

Carolinesbeanies · 01/10/2017 09:10

Yep, and about time too. They cant ignore pictures like this for much longer.

eurochick · 01/10/2017 08:33

It's getting wall to wall coverage on Sky News. The scenes are pretty horrific.

Carolinesbeanies · 01/10/2017 08:25

No MSM coverage. Riot police in full flow , twitter. #catalanreferendum

mobile.twitter.com/FPG_Galiza/status/914387119438811136/video/1

Carolinesbeanies · 01/10/2017 08:15

Well polls opened to queues this morning, since the tech shut down, ballots printed at home being accepted. Peaceful Catalonias wishing to vote are now called 'activists' and various MSM here in UK running with the 'coup' headlines. Riot police moving in at various polling stations whilst the public try to protect the doors.

Catalexit
Catalexit
Original poster
Spinflight · 01/10/2017 00:58

Sadly there doesn't seem to be many perceived votes in democracy...

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Carolinesbeanies · 01/10/2017 00:52

"Narrow political opportunism should never subvert base principles and this government has utterly failed a very simple test."

Agreed. Equally damning is the silence of the 'man of the people' Corbyn and the entire Labour lot too.

No power in democracy dont ya know.

Original poster
Spinflight · 30/09/2017 23:21

All we need is Tony Blair to wave his hands in front of him urging the Catalans to reject independence and we have an utter certainty then. :)

Only thing that could make it more certain is Eddie Izzard campaigning on the Spanish side. Maybe we could send a millionaire popstar over there to lecture Catalonians on their line of work? Anyone have Bob Geldorf's number?

On a more serious note I'm utterly ashamed of our government. You either support democratic principles or you don't, and this is the sort of thing that comes back you bite you. Doubt I'll have to remind anyone next time we start lecturing a smaller state on self determination or whatnot, they'll remind us.

I rather suspect our world image has been tarnished greatly by the government's complete silence. A few MPs or nationalist politicians whose agenda it suits doesn't count.

I couldn'e give a damn if they think it would inflame things north of Hadrian's wall or whether we've decided not to embarrass the EU. Narrow political opportunism should never subvert base principles and this government has utterly failed a very simple test.

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Carolinesbeanies · 30/09/2017 22:50

...and Assange has tweeted the new voting info apps. Macrons 'waded in' to support the Spanish government whilst the EU remains characteristically quiet.

"New Catalan voting info app after the other one was censored by Google:"

Android: play.google.com/store/apps/det…
iPhone: itunes.apple.com/us/app/referen…
Info: @1O_App

Original poster
Spinflight · 30/09/2017 21:42

If you support the Catalan's right to self determination then change the location settings for your browser / computer / phone etc to be Barcelona Spain.

Complicates their efforts to suppress and ban accounts supporting the referendum apparently. :)

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Carolinesbeanies · 30/09/2017 21:42

Spaniards protesting in Madrid this afternoon, against the referendum and Catelonia, singing the fascist anthem and saluting.

The biggest complaint in Catalonia today is the spanish fascist movements ripping down their 'more democracy' banners, and attacking schools.

mobile.twitter.com/CataloniaHelp2/status/914131859654639616

Catelonians have been appealing to the EU for months and months. Its fallen on deaf ears.

Carolinesbeanies · 30/09/2017 21:15

Approx 160 schools have been occupied. Various reports out there, but Guardian leading with the Spanish ambassador, and a 'mini coup d'etat' headline Hmm

RT, are covering the nearest I can find of live coverage. Some injuries reported following fire from what appears to be a pellet gun.

www.rt.com/news/405135-spain-catalonia-independence-referendum/

Mistigri · 27/09/2017 10:51

Brits** abroad

French-British family. I have lived here for 20 years - specifically, in the part of the "Occitanie" region closest to the Spanish border.

Catalan independence is a serious issue in Spain, but to pretend it is at risk of spreading to France is just silly. Is there such a thing as an independence movement whose coattails brexiters are not desperate to grab?

Carolinesbeanies · 27/09/2017 10:26

"You would expect that Western European democracies would accept and support the right of self determination."

The SNP do. Whats more surprising though, is the EU dont. Go figure.

Original poster
Spinflight · 27/09/2017 09:39

Brits abroad eh? :)

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Mistigri · 27/09/2017 06:36

Spinflight I don't need take walking holidays in the area because I already live there.

Original poster
Spinflight · 27/09/2017 05:17

I've walked extensively through the region Misti.

You seem to be confusing voting habits with identity, or merely basing your intemperate reply on google fu. :)

Remarkable the tiny amount of coverage that the Catalan referendum is receiving. You would expect that Western European democracies would accept and support the right of self determination. It's only when the Spanish do something particularly outrageous that anything whatsoever is mentioned.

Shutting down websites and even the .cat domain name. Stealing ballot papers, arresting mayors and lots of intimidation.

Should we really put up with this sort of behaviour from one of our allies?

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Carolinesbeanies · 27/09/2017 00:19

Todays update. Police moved in preparation for the weekend, and Rajoy wont be attending the EU summit this weekend.

news.sky.com/story/spain-orders-police-crackdown-on-catalonia-referendum-officials-11054571

Mistigri · 25/09/2017 14:16

I sincerely doubt it. The movement is so niche that their website is reduced to boasting about the 5,000 or so votes they got some time in the 1980s.

There is a distinct regional identity and language (Occitan) but this is distinct from Catalan.

cdtaylornats · 25/09/2017 13:07

Mistigri they may be small now but success in Spain might encourage them.

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