Catalexit

"they were arrested because they specifically obstructed the police, which is very, very, very different."

You best start locking up a lot more then........

You are conveniently ignoring (why?) the fact that Spanish unity is one of the principles of their Constitution, which was democratically voted by all Spaniards, including Catalans. Spain is not the only European country with this principle, which, in fact, is in no way contrarian to any aspect of European law. Poland is in no way comparable. The power grab by Polish and Hungarian politicians, their attempt to undermine the judiciary, to take control of the media etc. have NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the Catalan case.

The two individuals you mention were NOT arrested because they are pro independence, they were not arrested for their political ideas, or nothing of the sort: they were arrested because they specifically obstructed the police, which is very, very, very different.
Please, name ONE individual who has been arrested for ever saying he was pro independence. Name one – just one.

Ever heard of the Northern League in Italy? At one point it claimed it was pro-independence, although whether it ever really was is debatable. In the late ‘90s a bunch of buffoons “took over” the San Marco belltower, the very symbol of Venice, claiming theirs was a gesture for the independence of Northern Italy; they even had an old but functioning rifle. Of course they were arrested. By your logic, they were political prisoners?

The situation IS comparable to Brexit to the extent the leave camp has made no mention whatsoever of what will actually happen and why: no mention about the costs, about not having access to the ECB, about membership of the EU, etc. This is very similar to both the Scottish and the Brexit referendum because in both cases there was no clarity whatsoever on what the plan would have been. Wrt Brexit, almost 18 months have gone by and there is still little clarity now!

Oh, there was one Catalan politician who said something like: don’t worry, no company will ever leave Catalonia. Well, he has passed for a fool because facts have proven him wrong – big time.

.......and for those still banging on about the 'legalities', heres the Council of Europes latest report on the highly concerning issue of Spains lack of judicial independance, and their failure to address the Council of Europes concerns raised 3 years ago.

rm.coe.int/16806ca04a

and PS. Its not very similar to Brexit, the similarities, if any, are Scottish independance, and the right to be asked. The only other similarities I think youre refering too, is the rhetoric from some Scottish independance campaigners, and some Remain campaigners, is that somehow the losing side are now oppressed. Perhaps locking up those who disagree with us is indeed the new way forward, irrespective of any majority vote.

Spain has taken political prisoners. The EU should issue Article 7 and suspend Spains rights with immediate effect.

They threatened Poland with Article 7, if Duda sacked a Judge. Clearly job protection falls under Art 7, locking people up for a political belief, doesnt.

I think we all agreed, prior to this month, that a legitimate referendum would have seen the Independance campaign probably fail. Today, the world is an utterly different place.

Would it be too much to ask to substantiate even only half of what you have written?

Dictatorship. How and why? I am no fan of the Spanish PM, but he’s no dictator, even if sending the police was, IMHO, stupid and counterproductive .

The vast majority would welcome Catalonia. Why do you say that when all evidence suggests the contrary?

You are forgetting that Spanish unity is one of the principles of their Constitution, a Constitution that was democratically voted and accepted by all Spaniards, including the Catalans. It was voted a while ago, yes; so what? Do laws automatically have an expiration date? The statute against killing people is probably centuries old, this doesn’t mean I can go on a spree and kill people just like that!

Many people love to say that every independence movement was, at some point, “illegal” according to the laws of the country it was trying to break free from. Washington was “illegal” in the eyes of London. Bolivar (the liberator of Gran Colombia, i.e. Venezuela Colombia and Ecuador) was “illegal” in the eyes of Madrid. Etc. What these people fail to realise is that London and Madrid never gave their colonies political freedom. The Catalans live in a democratic country, whose Constitution was democratically approved by all citizens, including those of Catalonia. None of this applies to Washington and Bolivar. That’s a huge, huge, huuuuge difference.

Madrid is between a rock and a hard place. What would you do if you were the Spanish PM? Would you tell the Catalan politicians: “yes, by all means, ignore the Constitution and go ahead? Would you send in the army and come across as an authoritarian bastard?

Like I said, there has been NO debate whatsoever on the actual implications of independence. All very similar to Brexit, with possibly the only difference being that they didn’t have a posh, privately educated and Latin-speaking politician, who claims he cannot support his family on a salary of only £140k, saying they’d have more millions for their health service.

What worries me is that it is far from clear that there is a definite majority in support of independence, unless you want to consider the result of a referendum where you could print the polling card from home and vote in any seat you liked. Even if you are pro-independence, even if you bury your head in the sand and don’t want to ask the difficult questions about what independence means, shouldn’t you at least want to be sure that something as important and potentially irreversible as independence is, in fact, supported by a strong majority of the people? Decisions like these should require a qualified majority. In the UK, you need 2/3 of the votes in the Commons to call an early election. Yet 52% of the votes was enough to declare Brexit. Folly. Utter folly.

There is also much to be said about the limits of direct democracy, and how it lends itself to becoming hostage to demagogues and populists. There is a reason, after all, why the constitutions of many countries explicitly prohibit referendums on international treaties and on tax matters. You disagree? You think it limits the freedom of the people? Then think of what would happen if there were a referendum on: “do you want 1% tax rate?”. Or what would happen in certain parts of the world if there were a referendum to kick out a given minority/ethnic or religious group. Freedom is never absolute – that’s the difference between a liberal democracy and the tyranny of the majority.

Its outrageous Spin, yet apparently utterly acceptable to the EU as the threat of Independance and self governance is a far greater crime against the EU than re-installing a dictatorship, oppression, political detentions and state violence. War and forced barriers, is the EU preference to any consideration of a peaceful, national identifying, civic independance between what would be 2 states utterly tied to each other anyway by families and economics.

There is no support for peaceful Independance, simply because there is no support for Independance full stop. The question is why?

The vast majority of eu member states would welcome the new, wealthy Catalonia with open arms. Why wouldnt they? Politically, the Nordics, the Balkans, the UK, Ireland etc are quietly letting their outrage be known.

Catalonian independance isnt and never was a risk to european peace. Rajoy is. The EU never cease to bewilder.

Do you finally admit that you posted fake news about the police raping (that was the title of the video you posted) a woman and breaking her fingers one by one?
[Yes.]
[No]
[I refuse to answer because I cannot admit my mistakes]
[Something else (please specify)]

Please tick one of the above.

Oh, I see, so you find it perfectly normal that a people should not worry their pretty little heads over tiny details, and should just jump off a cliff blindfolded, safe in the confidence that all will be fine, because their politicians said so, even if they utterly failed to provide a modicum of proof to support it. Right. I cannot see what might possibly be wrong with this logic :) After all, it explains Brexit just perfectly…
And, let’s see, if a Catalan were to say that he wouldn’t mind independence, but that he cannot make a fully informed decision until these points are clarified?

"Care to comment on why Cataln politicians did not deem it appropriate to even talk about what will happen, and why, to, you know, banal things like… the banks, their access to the ECB, Catalonia’s membership of the euro, international recognition, the additional costs of being independent, setting up your own borders, embassies and what not, whether these costs will outweigh the ‘benefits’ of being independent and not subsiding the other regions of Spain, etc. ?"

I will Southlondondaddy. Its Independance, not an exercise in due diligence on a section of population. If we could do that, euthanasia would be mandatory for the over 70s.

English version of Puidgemonts letter, whilst he refers to Rajoys Art155 threat, he doesnt address it at such, as to be fair, why should he? Rajoys running round making hot air noises, whats he going to threaten next?

Either sh*t or get off the pot is my reaction.

Anyway, allegedly (?) Rajoys threatened last chance nuclear option for today........has been moved to thursday.

Todays a day Spin, the world is watching Puidgemont. My guess, silence will rein, your move Mr Rajoy.

You said the police broke a woman’s fingers one by one.
I have shown you that the same woman went on national TV to explain this was not true. If this is not the textbook definition of fake news, then I honestly do not know what possibly is. If you still fail to recognise this, then there’s no point wasting time talking to you.

And what was your reply? Posting a video with the title “police rape woman, break her fingers one by one at polling station”. Rape? Really? Where? When? Where is the proof of that? Break her fingers? We have already gone through that…

What is with the word ‘fascist’ that is so widely abused this day? People should remember that it does not mean “anyone who dares disagree with me”. The Catalan director I mentioned earlier receives daily abuse in the street, and gets called fascist (among many, less gentle names) simply because she dares disagree with the pro-independence movement. Care to comment on these (far from isolated) incidents?

Like I said, I am no fan of the PP, and sending the police to try to prevent the referendum was always going to be recipe for the disaster. Yes, there has been violence, and no, I do not justify it in any way. But saying that police raped a woman and broke her fingers one by one is simply false. There is no other word for it. Also, for the sake of fairness, if the Spanish police were brutal and “fascist”, then so were the Mossos (the Catalan police) every single time they tried to break or disrupt protests in their own Catalonia with far more brutality.

Care to comment on why Cataln politicians did not deem it appropriate to even talk about what will happen, and why, to, you know, banal things like… the banks, their access to the ECB, Catalonia’s membership of the euro, international recognition, the additional costs of being independent, setting up your own borders, embassies and what not, whether these costs will outweigh the ‘benefits’ of being independent and not subsiding the other regions of Spain, etc. ?

You must be referring to the lady who admitted on TV3 that she has 'capsulitis' (a kind of inflammation) on one finger only.

www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/10/03/59d33f35ca47412d7f8b4604.html

You know, in an age when every idiot can publish fake news on the net, it might probably be wiser to be a bit more sceptical of what one reads on the web.

The situation in Catalonia is not comparable to, say, that of a colony trying to free itself from European oppressors. Spain is far from perfect. The very fact that king Juan Carlos was de facto chosen by the dictator Franco as his successor is beyond words. But Spain has a Constitution the whole population, including the Catalans, voted for. The independence of Catalonia would affect the entire country, to an extent not comparable to, again, that of a colony seeking freedom.

And these Catalan politicians want to declare independence on the basis of a referendum where people could print the ballot papers from home, and were allowed to vote in any constituency just by showing up? Were they taking lessons from North Korea on how to run an election?

Also, why are all the banks enterprises and investors fleeing Catalonia? Mmm...

Some Catalans would like a deal comparable to what the Basque have (concierto ecónomico), which basically gives the Basque country the right to retain most of its tax revenues. Notably, this was offered to Pujol (the guy who stashed squillions in Andorra an Panama) in the '80s, but he refused.
For those who don't know, this was the time of Terra Lliure, the Catalan terrorist movement, which was never as much of a threat as the ETA, but, still, they were no harmless boy scouts.

Just like this deal didn't stop the ETA, there's no guarantee it would have stopped the Catalan independence movement. And there's also a question of fairness: I'm not sure this kind of deal would be sustainable if applied to every single "autonomous community" (region) in Spain. Catalonia is a rich region but it's not subsidising the whole country alone; in fact, its fiscal imbalance is roughly identical to that of Madrid, according to official ministerial data.

Again, 800+ were the people attended to, not actually hurt (lots of panic attacks). I'm not saying there was no violence, I'm just putting it into context; some Catalanas have said it was one of the most violent and serious events of the last decades - no, it wasn't, not even close, way more people get hurt at protests against the G8 or things like that.

I am not a supporter of the PP. But if there are nazi-like attitutes, they are more easily found in the pro-independence camp. Have you ever lived in Catalonia? Do you know how difficult your life can be if you are openly against independence? Isabel Coixet, a film director from Barcelona, has recently spoken out against the constant abuse she is subject to (people calling her fascist in the streets) simply because she is against independence. Look her up - she gave interviews in both English and Spanish, if I remember correctly.

Ah, one more thing: do you know Jordi Pujol? Look him up. He was the undisputed leader of Catalan politics for more than 2 decades - never particularly pro independence. Then it was found out that he and his family had millions stashed away in Panama and Andorra. Huge turmoil in Catalan politics; his party, that of Puigdemont, changed name and, oh what a surprise, started becoming more pro-independence. Nothing like rallying your voters against a common enemy to let them forget of a huge internal corruption scandal.

And, of course, like with most pro-independence movements, there has been no discussion whatsoever about the costs, taxes, pensions, joining the EU... It seems that banks and companies are already voting in their own referendum, though, by moving the registered address well away from Catalonia.

SouthLondondaddy, I think Ada Colau, Mayor of Barcelona, can respond far better than I, as she addresses all the points you are attempting to make here.

"The government of the PP persists in its lies. It continues to deny what is obvious to the international press and to everyone who has seen the images of the police crackdown on October 1 in Catalunya: that there was violence, brutality, viciousness.
For many years, the right-wing in Spain has created a false and distorted image of what is happening in Catalunya. They speak of totalitarianism, of a broken society, of a population cowed by violent separatists. Even the words they choose are not neutral. “Seditious” and “separatist” are not descriptive terms but rather are highly charged. They begin by dehumanizing the other with these words … and they end by beating elderly women in the doors of schools, and calling this behaviour “professionalism”, “proportionality” and “defence of democracy”.
When there are two very different versions of the same reality, it is best to analyse the facts.
It is a fact that on October 1, 844 people were injured. One of them has almost lost an eye…proportionality? What is proportional to an eye? What is proportional to pushing a woman down stairs? To grabbing elderly women by the hair? To the fear that children felt and still feel at seeing their schools damaged?
I am not in favour of independence for Catalunya, and I do not support unilateral actions. I have said this many times and I say it again. I am very critical of the government of Puigdemont and I do not like how things have been handled. But there is something which rises above our individual opinions and which should unite all of us who believe in and defend rights, freedom and democracy: the use of state violence against a peaceful population cannot be tolerated.
Today the government spokesman has called the Catalans who demonstrated against the police repression “Nazis”. Again, the words … Nazis? Is Mr. Hernando aware of what the Nazis did? Did the Nazis demonstrate peacefully for years to secure the right to vote? Did the Nazis protect schools while hundreds of police beat them? The thousands of men and women, young and old, who today have filled the streets chanting “We are people of peace” are really “Nazis”? Using the word “Nazi” so carelessly is an insult to the victims of Nazism and Mr. Hernando should be ashamed.
If what I am writing manages to cross informational borders, if people outside of Catalunya read it and want to know what is happening here, I would respectfully ask them to attempt to analyse this conflict with an open mind. I would dare them to question what is being said by government spokespeople, what is being denied and, even worse, what is being justified.
We are facing a state crisis without precedent and I am concerned about the complete impasse in the relationship between the Catalan and Spanish governments. But what would be truly tragic would be if we allow the many ties of fraternity and affection that unite us, the people, to be fractured. We cannot allow this.
We have been hit. We have been hurt. It will not be easy to forget this. We need your support.
What has happened violates the fundamental rights and freedoms of all of us: Catalans, Spaniards, Europeans…Today it is Catalunya, but tomorrow it may be anywhere if we accept this and it goes unpunished. If we justify it, we are lost. Everyone loses. Democracy loses.
Our fathers, mothers and grandparents who together fought for democracy would not forgive us. For them, for their legacy, let us join together to save democracy, to remove from their posts those people who ordered this crackdown and who are incapable of seeking political and peaceful solutions. Those in government must listen, must respect the people, must put forth positive proposals and alternatives and, above all, must never act against an unarmed population."

It is all way, way, way more complex than you make it appear.

I think sending the police to Catalonia to try and stop the referendum was stupid and counterproductive. Having said that, the violence was nowhere near what was described by the Catalan politicians.

A good summary is here: elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/02/hechos/1506963876_226068.html You can try google translate if you don't speak Spanish.

Long story short, the figure of 800+ is totally misleading: those were the medical cases attended to, most of which were anxiety and panic attacks, just to name one. No, I'm not saying there was no violence, just not on the scale some think. Oh, and there was violence against the police, too.

It is true that historically the right to self-determination has been exercised through some kind of revolt against the "laws" in force at the time. Half the world would still be ruled by European powers, had it not rebelled against the "laws".

However, none of this is even remotely applicable to Catalonia. The unity of the Spanish state is a foundation of the Consitution, which was approved by all Spaniards, including Catalans. Spain is, in many respects, more federal than the US and Catalans already enjoy a huge degree of autonomy.

But what if they want more? Isn't it their right?
Well, it's complicated. First of all, there is no proof that the majority of Catalans actually want independence. This referendum was a farce, and totally meaningless. But, on a more general level, who should vote? Residents of Catalonia - even the non-Catalans? How about the Catalans outside of Catalonia? What majority should be required? None of these points have been addressed thoughtfully.

The only thing that is clear is that it is ridiculous to depict Spain and the EU as some kind of oppressors of the poor Catalan people - but Brexiters are never deterred by a lack of facts.

Indeed Spin. Perhaps wording your question differently, may prompt some thought.

Does the EUs stance, that citizens EU rights in Catalonia are indeed under the supreme judgment of the national government in Spain, (and as persistantly repeated, a matter for the Spanish government only), concern any EU citizens living in Britain hoping for EU representation or protection post brexit?

Quite simply, the EU have made it clear that national law does indeed supercede EU laws regards any citizens rights. Perhaps they are just a trading bloc after all?

Meanwhile, Catalan officials are now being rounded up for sedition.

www.teletrader.com/report-catalan-officials-probed-for-sedition/news/details/40561154?internal=1